17 Oct, 2023

Pete Cohen (00:01.406)

So good morning or should I say good night to you? Ray, how are you?

 

Ray (00:06.438)

I'm good, but yes, it's an evening time here and we're doing it in reverse. It's morning where you are and late in the evening where I am.

 

Pete Cohen (00:17.254)

Yeah, it's 4.37 here. And the next time I'll be recording a podcast with you, I will be in Hungary, which is, I've never been there. Actually, I have been there before. I just cycled for a couple of hours through Austria into Hungary and then back into Austria again. So I only know one Hungarian word, which is fantasti kus, which means fantastic. Do you know any Hungarian words, Ray?

 

Ray (00:45.214)

I don't, although I spent some time in Austria and went across the border, but I didn't go into Hungary. And apologies, my horrendous geography. It was another country and I've forgotten it. But anyway, that was a great trip.

 

Pete Cohen (00:59.474)

Well, at least you know one Hungarian word now, which is a fantasticos. So for those of us that maybe are listening to the podcast for the first time, what are these podcasts all about from your perspective? Right.

 

Ray (01:14.954)

Well, they go back to, I think, June of this year, when you made a trip across here, and it was the second time we've met each other in person, although we've known each other for the last two years. And it's the beginning of a journey for you, where we've worked together over two years, and you've been intrigued by some questions I've asked you, like who are you, what is your value?

 

who are you supposed to be serving and how are you supposed to serve them? And that journey was interrupted in the most profound way with the loss of your dear wife. So you came over in June and we decided that we would just have sessions where we talk about the principles that really impact all of those four areas, but particularly knowing who you are sometimes involves slowing down.

 

And in some previous podcasts, we've identified that people can suffer from hurry sickness, being busy by being busy. And what we're trying to do is help people to get a sense of where they are. And I think it's the most important aspect is for someone with authenticity to say, I know who I am. And then where you know where you are and who you are, you've got a better chance of them making decisions about.

 

your meaning and your purpose in life.

 

Pete Cohen (02:44.062)

That's really profound. Thank you for kind of sharing that. I find it extremely useful to stop and just review. Like you said, and I remember that first podcast, we did it walking down the street. And I'm sure many people that are listening to this have listened to all of the podcasts that we've done. And if this is the first one you've listened to, then this is our open invitation for you to listen back to any of those that may be.

 

Ray (02:59.49)

We did.

 

Pete Cohen (03:12.658)

grab your attention. There have been a real key things that we've been focusing on and one of them is, as Ray said, who you are, who you are supposed to be serving. We've been talking about the importance of stopping, being more intentional, my 365, my intentions.

 

We've been talking about front stage and back stage, which is what's going on behind the scenes inside us. The front stage that we project to the world, who we show the world that we are, but what's going on behind, what's really going on the story, the narrative that we're telling ourselves. And also we've been talking about making investments, 1%, at least 1% every day if you can, 14 minutes, 24 seconds. And a couple of weeks ago, we started a couple of podcasts around...

 

intentionally being more grateful. And then recently we did another one where we dived into appreciation. And I think as we continue on the theme of gratitude, I think something I was just reflecting on Ray was around who am I now, but who was I being and actually being grateful for the person that I was. Because one of the things I see is that it's very easy for people and I know that

 

I've done this. I was going to say I'm guilty of this. It's very easy for human beings to be hard on themselves, to feel guilt, to feel shame, but I think to appreciate who we are. And in fact you sent me a reel on Instagram yesterday and there was a gentleman, a Christian

 

Pete Cohen (05:01.438)

forgiving yourself. It was actually talking about, you know, God forgives you. However you look at it, I think one of the most compassionate things, one of the most beautiful things that a human being can do is to appreciate who they were and to see that we always have a chance to move on, to improve. I wonder what your take is on that, what I've just said.

 

Ray (05:27.826)

Well, in terms of gratitude, it is a decision.

 

And I think sometimes people think that a gratitude is a feeling, but it's a decision to take a look at self and your environment and decide.

 

very instrumentally really about the things in your life you should be grateful for. And it sounds cliche, just being able to breathe. You spoke about someone that we both know and you spent some time when they weren't sure if they were gonna make it through the pandemic. And every breath they take, they certainly are grateful for it now. And they've just done some incredible things recently in terms of physical feats, which...

 

really go against what the predictions may have been some years ago. So gratitude for anyone here, it's deliberately and intentionally focusing on things that you should be grateful about. Appreciation is more of a perception. So you can appreciate something from afar. And you can perceive it has some value, perhaps not just to you, but you may appreciate that it has value to someone else.

 

But gratitude is a very personal connection. And I think Pete, that everyone that's listening to this has the capacity specifically and uniquely to them to look at what they are grateful for in their own life.

 

Pete Cohen (07:09.042)

Hmm, it's interesting because I had some different ideas around that. But in the last few weeks, since we've been really delving into this, I now look at it slightly differently. And it's up to everyone really to make up your own mind is one of the things that Ray and I are very conscious about is that we're not here to tell you that we're right and you're wrong. We like to delve into these different subjects so that you have a different perspective, perhaps.

 

and then maybe you'll act in a way where you get to feel better based on the fact of what you do. And I really love what you say about gratitude being a decision. I really, really like that, consciously making the decision. And I wonder why it's such an important decision for people to make. So a couple of weeks back, we asked people to consciously spend one percent of their day or less or more, if they want to engage in the practice.

 

of stopping and really taking stock of what they're grateful for in their life. But also like when you talk about appreciation and you know if you Google that word and you see what it means, it means to increase in value. I really like that, that you can be grateful for something and I suppose the more you think about it the more you appreciate what you have.

 

the more you feel something, you can appreciate it even more and more and more. It's a, but I'd love to ask you, because we've spoken, we spoke about this in the last podcast about being grateful, being able to fill yourself up with, with gratitude. Why do you think it's such an important decision for people to make to consciously choose the decision to be grateful?

 

Ray (08:58.81)

Well, let's get, I suppose, scientific. There's been research about gratitude quite a lot, and there are some psychological, emotional, and physiological benefits. So this isn't Pete, you and I thinking about this, this is documented. I think UCLA did some research, and it talks about a range of studies that were done.

 

I think there were 70 studies in all, about 26,000 people. And conclusively and consistently, the data analysis suggests that being grateful reduces depression. Being grateful reduces anxiety. Being grateful supports heart health. It reduces blood pressure. It gives us a stronger overall cardiovascular.

 

health and regulation. It supports the release of happy hormones.

 

It relieves stress.

 

Pete Cohen (10:03.938)

It's great. It's sorry to interrupt you. It's kind of crazy, isn't it? If you it's like, it's like, you know, of all the things we can experience, you know, why, why is why is that and I did some podcasts on this a few years ago and really delved into some of that science. And I've mentioned this before the work of a guy called Robert Emmons, who's one of the most foremost authorities in that area. And you're right, there's studies of conclusive around, you know, even longevity sleeping better.

 

Ray (10:08.127)

It is.

 

Ray (10:32.022)

Yep, immunity, all sorts of things, because the body has a natural regulating aspect. And I think what I would suggest here, and it's something to think about, being grateful has always been a natural process for people to be grateful for the things around them. But we are exposed to so much information in this digital age that we've spent a life now

 

Pete Cohen (10:32.518)

And I just wonder, yeah.

 

Ray (11:01.454)

quite easily being distracted by other things, comparing ourselves to other people, other situations. We don't have the nicest home, we don't drive the nicest car, we don't earn enough money. So it's a very consumer driven aspect, that identity is what people see. And that means that being grateful, there has to be evidence around it. But this research says no.

 

When you decide to be grateful, there's something internally happens to you that no one can see. And it actually has more value than chasing more money or more things in the world. I think this is an extraordinary point to think about. External, if you're extrinsically defined, you're looking for things outside of self to serve you. And that's natural order of things today. We see it in popular culture.

 

everything we look at. We look at reels and TikTok, we see examples of what we should celebrate through audio visual displays and content. But what the research suggests, those who stop, and this has been the theme of our podcasts, and are brave enough to take a journey inward, one of the processes that you start to become very mindful and very present, and in that space, you can connect to your

 

truth and your truth is actually paradoxical because it's your truth, but the truth is connected to a realm that goes beyond the physical. It's a metaphysical and in that space and we could have a debate we don't have time to do that in that space research is showing these benefits and everyone can have a debate about why this happening. What's the phenomenon? But I think Pete at this stage is just helpful for us to say guys.

 

a process for stopping is it helps you. Now, there might be people here, let's say you're under medication and you take blood pressure tablets because the world acts as an antagonist to you and you have elevated levels of anxiety and you've got a generational aspect. You can remember your parents or they might be alive or whatever the scenario. And they had those traits of.

 

Ray (13:29.122)

chasing and hustling. Well, according to this research, there is the possibility, and I'm not gonna give any clinical insight, but there's a possibility that stopping, finding time to be grateful, and focusing intentionally internally could naturally create neurochemical responses that could reduce the level of stress and anxiety, and potentially reduce.

 

blood pressure and some research I've seen if people have got essential blood pressure, which is 140 over 90 some people say so effectively the blood pressure when your heart beats and then when it dilates and that's the two mechanisms of blood pressure. If you can get that down to 130 over 80 that's significant 10 percentage points on both sides. It is possible. We can see those things as well. Obviously through diet and nutrition.

 

and good deliberate action. But this one, gratitude is extraordinary because people don't believe it. You mean I make a mental or a literal list of things that I am thankful for in my life. And if I focus on those things and I'm grateful for them, I create a natural balance. And these happy hormones that people have caused on dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, endorphins have a better chance of...

 

working in my body, because they were designed to help us balance and regulate ourselves against the environment. Stopping is our internal journey to support our external journey.

 

Pete Cohen (15:07.822)

You know, you know as you talk it, I obviously just reflect I'm so curious around you know where this all came from and why and I suppose many people can have different Perceptions around this so like you think about when we were living in caves or living in the jungle or the forests That there was just certain ways that we were designed to survive Like I often say to people, you know cavemen never would have gone for a run

 

for no reason, they only would have run because they had to. So that if you feel that you need to do some exercise, chances are you might feel some resistance to that because we're almost designed to conserve energy, not to expend it unless we have to. And I think why would we have gratitude? And I thought about what you just said there and maybe it's because for us to appreciate what we actually have, so we become more present as opposed to looking elsewhere for something that perhaps we don't actually need. Again.

 

my mind, I just love to think about where do these things come from? As I, as you know, I love to like you, the origin of words, where do words come from? But as we, as we, as we delve even deeper into the subject of gratitude, I think what's beautiful is when you do it more intentionally. And in a world where it's very easy to come from a place of lack, right? I'm not enough. I don't have enough. Everything I need is in front of me. In fact, Ray, I was reading in a book about

 

the author was talking about, imagine going to a cinema and you sit in there and you don't like the film. So you go up to the screen and you start trying to move the characters around to try and make it a better story. And he was saying that's what a lot of people are trying to do rather than actually, and then you go out the cinema and you go to another cinema down the road or a different town or different country. And again, you try and do the same thing, try and move all the characters around, rather than actually looking at what's going on behind the scenes and

 

for us maybe all to wake up and just realize this incredible power of actually stopping and being grateful for what you actually have. And once again, I know I've mentioned this before about what my coach said to me is happiness is wanting what you already have and being grateful for that. And I must admit that's been an interesting lesson for me to learn, but I love the idea of practice.

 

Pete Cohen (17:32.166)

Why don't we just do something with this, Ray? I'm gonna kind of put you on the spot here. Can I ask you, and I'm more than happy to reciprocate, in your life right now, what is it that you're really grateful for and maybe that you visit every day in your mind and think about what you're grateful for?

 

Ray (17:54.518)

Well, it comes back to the four propositions. I'm grateful that I have a sense of who I am. I'm grateful that I think I know what my purpose and meaning is. I'm grateful for those people that I have the privilege to serve. And I'm grateful for exploring ways to improve how I serve others. And I also know that gratitude, remember, you stop and you work out what you're grateful for. But gratitude, and this isn't often spoken about, Pete.

 

is also an action term. So we sometimes restrict gratitude to, what are you grateful for? But actually you can serve others and you discover gratitude in that. So volunteering in your local community, random acts of kindness, paying things forward. So you could be a common practice where I live actually amongst some people here is sometimes they pay for the person behind them in a drive-through.

 

like Starbucks. So the next person comes up, they made their order and they say, Oh, the person in front has paid. Now that person driving away that made the payment has given something away. But actually, what they've received is an ability to be grateful for the ability to give and the feelings that come when we cooperate. And cooperation is another space where gratitude prevails. You become grateful of the relationships you have.

 

in your life. And I think it's really important for us to understand that because understanding that this isn't self-serving, this is very much relationally driven and gratitude improves relationships because you focus. It comes very closely, I love, you know, I said this before, humility is not thinking less of yourself. I want everyone listening to value themselves.

 

but humility is thinking about yourself less often. So when you're grateful, you're focusing what you're grateful about outside of self. I'm so glad that this is in my life. And it's that sometimes the confusion in this space is that gratitude is a very self-consuming thing. It's not. It really is cultivating a spirit of knowledge about who you are.

 

Pete Cohen (19:57.162)

Mmm.

 

Ray (20:20.458)

and research shows it makes you a happy and more content person. You have more energy, you're more interactive, you develop resilience and character, and you're more motivated to do things. But the most important thing I think in what I just said, it builds stronger relationships because everyone who enters your life is important. And I'll land my plane on this bit. A very good friend of mine in the UK used to talk about difficult people.

 

and there was two terms that came up in our conversations. One was a very pragmatic one, that when you meet someone who rubs you up the wrong way, that's a common term, call them sandpaper people, because actually they've designed to show up in your life because they challenge you in some way. And what they're doing is they're just kind of finely sanding, sometimes it's coarse sandpaper, just getting rid of some of the challenges, insecurities that we all possess.

 

But the word I like the best or the phrase I like the best is grace growers. When you have people in your life that are challenging, it's about you being grateful that they're helping you developing grace, love, understanding, patience. So gratitude can prevail and be everywhere, even in the most challenging spaces.

 

Pete Cohen (21:23.21)

I'm sorry.

 

Pete Cohen (21:41.778)

Well, I love what you said there about grace growers, because I definitely look at you as a grace grower in my life. Just the conversation that we had yesterday, to be able to have that kind of, well, we've had a couple of like, how you could call them, emotional, heated, uncomfortable, I don't know, just conversations that sometimes are really, you could avoid them. But I'm so grateful because of the fact that

 

we can have those types of conversations and then what comes out on the back of them. It's hard to actually convey that to people in such a way where maybe people can get a sense of what that means. But I just, it's such a beautiful conversation. And I suppose, when I look back at the nearly 500 episodes of this podcast over the last eight years, the last few months have been less about, you know, kind of real tactics and strategies and

 

need to do this or if you do this, this has been much more self exploration, a bit more of a stepping back, stopping and appreciating and looking at things differently and then encouraging people to

 

see that there is a different way, and to go on this journey of delving a bit deeper into things like gratitude. And I absolutely, I had a big epiphany. Again, I know this might seem obvious to you, Ray, but when you were saying before about, and I would encourage people to listen back and listen to what Ray said just before, I'm definitely gonna listen back to that, which was about, gratitude starts with you. It starts with you, and if you do know who you are and what your value is.

 

then you're coming from such a great place because you're less, I think, personally, you're less likely to question yourself. And I think if you can, is that thing of put the oxygen mask on yourself first before you put it on other people. Start with being grateful. That was my takeaway from that. Be grateful for who you are. But I'd love to hear your take on that, but also can you just share with why you think it's important? If you do.

 

Pete Cohen (23:52.69)

and to be grateful for who you were because I think a lot of people look back in life and think well I could have, would have, should have and can be quite hard on themselves for who they were rather than well that's who you were maybe you were doing the best that you could with what you knew. Is this, what's your take on that right?

 

Ray (24:13.95)

Can you just repeat what you really want me to answer there? Because there's two things I'm hearing.

 

Pete Cohen (24:17.662)

So, yeah, yeah. That's the workings of my mind. So, in order, the first thing is, which you've elaborated on and you've shared about, being grateful for who you currently are and knowing your value. And I think that's such important work to do. And we've done podcasts on that and I'm sure we'll continue to talk on it. I think sometimes people find that hard to do because they don't know who they are, but also because of who they were.

 

you know, when people come from a place of regret, from shame of what they did or what they didn't do, of thinking that they're not enough. And I'm asking you how important do you think it is for people to be grateful for who they were and not to think that they're coming from a place of not being enough.

 

Ray (25:08.002)

I think it's a great question and I think we've discussed this, that I think biographical research, looking at your own life, speaking to other people that have gone through life. One of the things I've seen as a key theme with centennials and people that live a long life is there's an emerging theme that's come through research that one of the themes is don't have regrets. So what happens is if there's a mistake...

 

or something goes wrong, you move forward. So there's a really big difference between guilt and shame, for example. And sometimes people get so confused about the two and they say to themselves, they've done wrong and they really struggle with trying to work out how to get over things. So...

 

I would say that the most important thing is to review life. Yes, you need to know where you are, but have ownership and acceptance of things that have happened. But then you must move on because the legacy of yesterday into today has to be one where you've grown from yesterday, but you don't use the pain of yesterday to exacerbate.

 

insecurities today, which then drive you just to act in a fear way. And in a fear ways, you want to control everything. And controlling really is a way of trying to seek out certainty because you're trying to protect yourself. Well, I think Mark Manson and some other people, Mark Manson has got a best selling book, listeners can look it up. But he, as well as other philosophers and Stoics talk about certainty, being the enemy of growth.

 

So when you ask that question, Pete, about gratitude, gratitude is fluid and it doesn't judge. It's just very present and you learn to be grateful for things. So there could be a dysfunctional relationship between a parent and a child because of trauma, whatever it might be. But there is always an opportunity for restitution in a relationship.

 

Ray (27:32.898)

and a healthy way is to draw a line sometimes on under the pain that's been caused and then develop a relationship from the present. So if anyone's listening you have the ability to restore, rekindle or start a relationship with someone in your life that you believe should be in your life but currently isn't.

 

And the first step is to be grateful of the potential that would offer to you. Something that's not currently in your life. And by focus on it, by stopping and focus on it, you will, I believe, generate the critical insight and the opportunities to do that and make a difference. And I'll put you on the spot with this Pete, in our podcast, people can listen back. You are actually, you did your cycle ride with your dear brother.

 

but you told me that you were so grateful for the time that you had with your brother and his family, your family. Can you explain what you meant? What were you grateful about?

 

Pete Cohen (28:44.55)

Well, one thing we did is say at the beginning, before we start recording this would be 2% of our day and we're just hitting that spot. Because we want to be, listen, we want to be intentional with people and I just to let people know. But I want to answer the question because, you know, as much as I find these conversations just are so important, personally, and I just want to thank you for that.

 

Ray (28:51.863)

Okay.

 

Pete Cohen (29:09.238)

I think as I've gotten older and people have passed on, my parents, my wife, and many other people, I think kind of, what am I left with? I'm left with, in many cases, the memories and the love, the love that people have shared with me. And I was just overwhelmed by realizing the love that my brother has for me. I mean, it took this to happen for me to be so grateful.

 

for who he is and how he moves through the world. And then I get to spend this time with him. And I suppose this is where I, I suppose that would be my answer to your question, but I just love what you said about restoring and rekindling and it's hard to, the foundation of being grateful for who you are and knowing your value in the world, hugely important, but it's more of a challenge if you're not grateful for who you were.

 

where you can practice some form of forgiveness to forgive yourself for what you did or to realize that you did what you did because that's what you knew. But to realize that there's always this opportunity to restore, to recreate, to rebuild, and just to realize. And this all comes down to, for me, to one word, Ray, and it's love. And I'd love us to explore that a little bit, the power of loving, gratitude. And I wonder...

 

I feel I had a big takeaway on what I would ask people to continue to do if they're joining us on this kind of gratitude journey is to be grateful for what they've had. You know, you can be grateful for what you have, but be grateful for what you've had in your life and grateful for who you've been. So maybe you could look back in your past a little bit more. And this is a journey I'm about to embark on once again, but I'm going to go deeper than I ever have, which is to maybe look back at your life.

 

and think, well, this happened for me and not to me. I wonder what you would like people to take away from this podcast today, right?

 

Ray (31:12.146)

Um, I think it's a great perspective. We're touching on a whole big subject here, Pete, about how we interpret and internalize our experiences. And for many people, if they've been offended, hurt or abused in any way, it's very difficult and it's a sensitive area to talk about trauma. And if someone is a victim of something, how they manage that is a very personal journey.

 

Pete Cohen (31:42.038)

Yes, yes, yes.

 

Ray (31:42.494)

And because it's a personal journey, when we're talking about being grateful, let's imagine gratitude as a pole, and we can be grateful for things at one end of the pole, which is all positive, but at the other end of that pole are things that are negative. And the people I've come to know over my life who have mastered gratitude, they're people that are grateful for all experiences.

 

which I say with great sensitivity, because for anyone listening to this, that might be the most absurd thing to say. And the reason I believe some people have said that in their life and people I've worked with is because they have been able to look at those experiences and be grateful for the fact that they have shaped them positively, the experience wasn't positive, but what they did was

 

make commitments to themselves. And I can think of one person in my life that I know, and I've known him for many years, and he had lots of regrets in his early life about his relationship as a father. And when I've watched him with his kids, now, he says, I'd like to your point, Pete, he's been able to move on from the times when he was chasing money, he was chasing success. And he didn't spend that time with his kids.

 

and he's making it up, but his kids are adults now. They've got kids. So he's investing as a grandfather. Those grandkids do not know anything else apart from this very attentive person. But I know through some of the work I've done with him, there are periods in his life, which if he focused on them too much, they would draw him down. But what he's done is he's decided that's a well of knowledge there. My priorities are wrong.

 

I've been able to forgive myself, and now I live presently and mindfully. And I think it's a joy for me to witness that.

 

Pete Cohen (33:42.89)

Yep, and that's why we would love to hear from you. Just to reiterate what Ray was saying there, you know, there's your way is the way. And often with past experience, it can be really helpful to talk that through with someone. And again, that's something I've done in my life. But we are extremely grateful that you have dedicated some time to listening to us for 34 minutes. And we'd love to know what your biggest takeaway is.

 

from today or your takeaways, I'm definitely taking my gratitude to a whole new level and I want to wish you, Ray, I know you'll be off to sleep very soon. It's such a strange thing to think that you're going to be going to sleep and I'm just going to practice some Wim Hof breathing, I'm going to exercise, you know, but I'm so grateful for the time that we spend together, my friend.

 

Ray (34:39.271)

Likewise.

 

Pete Cohen (34:43.106)

We will see you on the next podcast.

 

Ray (34:45.698)

Take care, bye for now.