19 Sep, 2023

Pete Cohen:

We're live. So good morning to you, Ray. Thank you so much for being with me once again today.

 

Ray:

Good morning, Peter. How are you?

 

Pete Cohen:

Peter? Well that's not something I hear that often but I suppose that is my name. So that's what my mum calls me and a few other people but that is my name. You know my passport, my birth certificate, it says Peter. What about on yours? Does it say Ray or Raymond or Raymondo

 

Ray:

Yeah,

 

Pete Cohen:

or...

 

Ray:

I walked straight into that, didn't I? Yeah, I'm Raymond.

 

Pete Cohen:

He did. Raymond,

 

Ray:

Yeah.

 

Pete Cohen:

well, I'll just call you Ray. Dr. Ray. It's been an interesting day already. It's ridiculously hot here. I think it's the hottest day of the year. And we got confused with time zones. I think it was my bag. I always, I know you're in Indianapolis. You're six hours

 

Ray:

Five hours.

 

Pete Cohen:

behind, five hours Eastern. And I get confused sometimes. But we're here now. And one of the things we're going to be doing today We're gonna slot this into what we call 2%. So a few weeks ago on the podcast, we talked about the importance of just kind of letting people know who listen to the podcast, what you are going to be listening to, so you can allocate that amount of time to what we're talking about. 1% is 14 minutes and 24 seconds of your day, and 2%, obviously, double that. Again, don't ask me, my maths isn't brilliant, but 28 minutes. And I really wanted to talk to you, Ray, In the last podcast we talked about backstage, front stage, and it was a beautiful podcast. If you guys get a chance to listen to that prior to this, please do. It's actually not the last, it's the last but one because in between Ray and I podcast together, sometimes we have a guest. But please check it out. And Ray, you said you really enjoyed that podcast and I listened to it back myself. I listened to it while I was driving to London with Dr. Rokowski, someone who's been on the podcast three times and he absolutely loved it. He absolutely loved this whole concept of what's going on backstage. What is it about that you liked so much when you listened back to it yourself?

 

Ray:

So the first thing, just to put my academic hat on, most of my inspiration comes from a guy called Irving Goffman who wrote a book. And the focus of his book was on what he called the dramatological narrative of life. So he basically says, Pete, right now, you and I are performing. And those people listening may be listening privately. could be backstage or they could be on the front. And what I like about fronts, and I'll extend it a little bit more, is that we all perform in the front stage. I call it front stage, he originally called it front. My connections in the music industry, I like front stage, back stage, because I've seen it practically when people are prepping to go on stage, what people do behind stage before they go on stage. But there are three key things he talks about. in this book. Presentations are everyday life if anyone wants to look the book up. It's still available and it was published in the late 50s. So it shows you how relevant some things are. But he talks about setting and he talks about the furniture or the setting. So basically we perform in particular settings. And this is really interesting Pete because I'd like you to share, let's just work this through then over our 2% today. What settings have you set up for yourself when you wake up in the morning?

 

Pete Cohen:

Well, you know, the thing about what's going on behind the scenes, I just, is one of the most fascinating conversations you can ever have. And the experience that you and I have had working together has made me even more aware of my own narrative, because to me that's what backs part of backstage is, is what you're saying to yourself. And as someone who's worked in the world of coaching and working with world class athletes like, you know, Ronnie O'Sullivan, seven time snooker world champion. has been staying with me, he's just gone off to China. When you work with someone when they're performing, you've got to know what's going on backstage. You've got to know, because if you don't know, I think that affects everything, it affects performance. So this doesn't answer your question directly, but I think it's one of the most fascinating things we will ever do, become aware of what's going on backstage and how that's affecting upfront stage, how that affects. how we move through the world. For me, Ray, when I wake up every day, I've become pretty aware of my narrative quite quickly, what I'm saying to myself, what's going on behind the scenes. And I know that if I don't start my day off with intention, specific intention, and put myself in a place where I'm ready for anything or ready for what's coming after, I've been very intentional about a few things, which I tend to do every day, which is a little bit of learning. definitely exercising, some Wim Hof breath work, cold shower, a bit of meditation. And then I'm just, I feel that my backstage is more in alignment with my purpose of what I want to do, which is serve. What about you?

 

Ray:

So the reason I asked the question is that Goffman first observed that our front is shaped with things like setting, our appearance and our manner. And we spoke in our last podcast about creating a balance between that front stage and the back stage. And what you've just done there by default is that you've deliberately, intentionally created settings in your back stage. So what I wanted to get across today to people is that settings aren't just for the performance outward in a social context, but backstage, when you are what you are when no one's looking at you, if you're intentional when no one's looking at you. So for you to do Wim Hof and the cold showers and other processes, you've got a gym outside in the garden or the yard for American listeners, that's intentional. And what I think we should... focus on as we look at this 2% is that many people are spending their time working in settings that they don't control and they come and they try to appear like they fit in and they try to put a manner on and a personality on that is one that's yearning to be accepted and in the last podcast we talked about how exhausting that is if you're backstage is just built to prepare for that performance all the time. So it's literally like a musical performance. You're backstage, you've got your costume on, you've done your sound check, your line check, and boom, you're out there and you're doing, the lights are on. And what I'm saying, in life, if you do that, it's exhausting. There is also a performance to self. So when you do Wim Hof in a cold shower, I'm pretty sure... that the region, the area you live in, you're not doing that as a David Blaine stunt in a translucent box suspended

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

on a crane so everyone can see it. You're making an investment in you when no one is seeing that. So I suppose my question today, Pete, because you've answered it by default, which is awesome, is that you have, on some level, become very intentional about creating settings and environments. And... making sure that you equip yourself so you can appear and have the right manner. And as we talk about this, we've recently over the last month or so talked about how difficult it has been as you've adjusted coming back to your home after Hannah has passed. And we've talked to lots about strategy.

 

Pete Cohen:

Hmm.

 

Ray:

And one of them I suggested to you was, make the space your own. And that's not disenfranchising anything of the wonderful memory you've had with Hannah. But now... you've got to create a setting and you need to have an appearance in that setting that's comfortable. And it was clear that you were uncomfortable initially, but you said to me yesterday, you know, I'm making great strides right now, I'm really, the home feels more like me, I've done some stuff and then you sent me a link

 

Pete Cohen:

Thank

 

Ray:

of

 

Pete Cohen:

you.

 

Ray:

a crane operation, which I thought was fantastic. I wondered if you could just share, so it's helpful to people to go, wow, Pete's actually creating. the right setting for him personally to edify him, to give him the balance when no one's looking. What have you been doing?

 

Pete Cohen:

Well, first thing is, what we would love you to do is become aware of your own backstage narrative. Not to judge, not blame, not shame, not criticise. Just become aware. It is what it is. How's that working out for you? And, you know, what you just said there about where I am right now and creating the space, I think it was Serena Williams, I heard her say, discipline equals freedom. And I never used to like that word discipline because it reminded me of being at school. But... I know myself well enough that if I don't intentionally put myself into a space where I'm focused, I can just be all over the place. And what's really interesting is that with my wife passing away, that created a space that I obviously didn't want that to happen. Of course I didn't want it to happen, but it's almost made me appreciate even more the importance of being my own best friend as we've spoken about. You know, you've mentioned on an Instagram post that you saw when I'm talking about us being at war with ourselves, and I agree with you. I used to say that a lot, and I think it's great to have a narrative where you become your own best friend, you become curious. And I do feel so much better because right now, time definitely is a great healer, but I am a product of my environment. This environment that I live in was a house that my wife and I moved in together. I let her... take care of a lot of the environment because I knew how important it was to her. And now I've started to change it around and it feels like this is my house. This is where I live. This is where I... I... it's even hard to even know what the word is but I can come back to that. You asked me about the table. I don't know here if anyone's ever bought anything and done it impulsively, right? What's the most impulsive thing you've ever bought, Ray? For me it was a table I bought in Guilin in China in 1999. I lived on a boat at the time. If it had been put on the boat, the boat would have sunk. So it was actually in Sally Gunnell. Olympic champion, world record holder. I was in her barn for 20 years, and I finally got it to my house because she moved out. My wife didn't like it in the house because it's so big. We had to get a circus removal company to move it in. We then moved into a new house and had to keep it outside. And we've had some real interesting stories to tell of having to move it around outside, but now... I finally have got it moved into the house. It was very difficult to get it in. We had to get a crane, but wow, does it feel amazing. Like this is my space. And as much as that space is important, it's only because it nourishes my internal space. So I feel like I'm at home. And I wonder what your thoughts on that, Ray? In fact, what's the most impulsive thing you've ever bought? And... What's your take on managing your backstage and having the environment that supports that?

 

Ray:

So the narrative we're talking about here is about intentionality. So intentionally setting out to create a setting that no one sees, but is about, as you talked about, discipline. And if you look at the root word of discipline, it is a Latin word, duplus, and it means student. And if you're involved in being disciplined outwardly so people can see it. You're basically a student to the setting. You're creating an appearance for the environment of others and you're creating a manner for other people. What we're talking about here is what you do internally. So, you know, the spontaneous consumption of a large table or something, if it's turned out to be the place that you've written all your bestselling books on or whatever, then you can see that it can link directly to that setting. But actually what I saw you do when you sent me those pictures, is you were creating a setting at home that is part of your history. It's part of your relationship with your coach. It's part of your relationship with Hannah. And you wanted to give it, you wanted to honor it in a space, not for anyone else, but because it was for you. So that's part of your internal setting. So lots of things have symbolic articulation. That table, in of itself, its weight, its size, isn't really why it's in your home page. It's in your home because it represents something about you and your history. And that's so important because what you're sharing with me is it's made you feel comfortable. Now here's the beautiful thing is that table has got, 99.9% of people could come in your home and say, I don't like that table. It doesn't matter because it's, the wall we're talking about here is your internal backstage setting, creating your own environment that works for you. That's different from the front stage setting, which is deliberately designed to be socially orientated. And what we're talking about is a balance between the two and an internal setting. So, you know, you've talked on tables, what came straight to mind, so I have to be authentic, is nearly eight years ago, coming to America, I thought, right, I'm gonna buy a desk, we had an office space, I'm gonna buy all this nice furniture. And I was writing up a research thesis at the time. I said, yeah, I'll get this table, it'll all be wonderful. Pete, do you know I didn't spend any time around that table? The setting for me to find the rhythm was around kitchen table in an eating area. In fact, when you've come over, we've sat around a table, but it's not that table. We were given a table, benevolently by some wonderful people we got to know. And I sat around that. not round the flash office table. And what I've worked out is sometimes, and some of you may smile, we create these settings for that. Now, I also grew up in an era, and you may not be familiar with this, some listeners may, but I grew up in a house where we had the best room and the best cutlery and the best glassware. This is interesting. You have a home and your setting is to build something up where you live. but then you have a best room you don't use. And guess what that's for? It's for the front stage when you have guests coming around.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

And I never understood that. I never understood it. Why have we got this wonderful, weird, this beautiful room? Why don't we ever hardly use it? Because it was front stage.

 

Pete Cohen:

It's like people that put covers over their best furniture and then they never actually even take the cover off. This whole experience of being a human being is something that you and I are very intentionally looking at and sharing our journeys with other people. It's that encouraging of you, wherever you are in the world, to come on that journey with us. It's not... always the easiest of journeys, but I think it's the most beautiful because what we all then have the opportunity is to feel more comfortable at home. And I never forget saying this to my coach, Raphael, when he was alive. I said to him once, I can't wait to go home. And he goes, where's home? And then I told him, I said, but you know where that is. You've been there. He goes, no, that's where you live. That's not your home. Your home is within you. You're always at home. And... learning to feel at home wherever you are in the world, whatever is around you, I suppose is that not maybe one of the greatest things I will ever do is learning to be at peace with myself, to love myself, to accept myself and my environment most definitely supports that, you know, my environment in which I live but also the people I spend my time with. So, you know, my life has hugely evolved. because of the quality of the people I put in my environment that actually support my backstage. You support my backstage. I support your backstage. I don't know all that goes on behind your backstage, but I know a fair bit from just talking to you. And I know the impact that your faith has on how you manage that relationship with yourself.

 

Ray:

Mm-hmm.

 

Pete Cohen:

And I'm curious, I'm curious in terms of the relationships we have with ourselves. Why is that so fraught? Why is that so challenged? I know we've discussed this before, but I'd just be curious as to what's on your heart around what I'm saying.

 

Ray:

What I do believe, as I said, that I love Goffman and before that William Shakespeare talks about the world's a stage and we all have roles. We have entrances and we have exits. And that's true in terms, very acutely true when we think about our social self. But I think what I've come to think about and really reflect on is that you are what you are when no one's looking. And for you, I've been mindful that going back to your home, there's not anyone looking, but you spend a lot of your time in public and social environments. You ran an event last weekend. So for me, it's been very much and we've not explicitly said this, I've just tried to encourage you this way is to make the home and yourself comfortable with that. And the word discipline, as I said, you can break it down, disciple. and disciple, what are we a disciple to? And obviously many people think about that in a religious context, Jesus and his disciples. But we are basically end up becoming disciples to the world at the front stage. We are just trying to be accepted, we're the student and we're dealing with the master. The master is the front stage and the audience and everyone else. And that's exhausting playing to that. But what about being student to yourself? You are serving self and that's the backstage. what's right for Pete Cohen, what's right for Ray Salvesta, what's right for other people. And then what you should do is create space. And you mentioned my faith. There's a film, some people may have heard this or not, but I'm gonna share it. There's a film called War Room. And War Room is a fascinating little Christian movie that you predominantly will probably be known in America because that's where they do these. types of films. So it's not got the latest Hollywood budget attached to it by any means, but it's had a cult following. And it's about this dear old lady who retreats to this room and she's got post-it notes all over the wall. And it's the room she retreats to, the setting she retreats to, to be engaged in deliberate mindful intention of thoughts, which can be meditation, prayer, whatever you want to call it. And on these post-it notes, she's got all of her aspirations and she lifts these up in prayer to God. And again, always mindful that anyone listening, you may have a different way of looking at the world, but one of the beautiful things is accepting that everyone has their own unique backstage. Well, in the film's narrative, she sells the house to someone else and she tells the lady what's going on, because the lady... the spoiler alert, a lady and her husband are having some challenges. And this lady adopts the same process and the things that happen are amazing. Now, for all of us, journal keeping is another intentional environment where you create a setting to sit, to reflect, to write meditation. Prayer, I've just mentioned Wim Hof. Exercise, you know, preparation of food. All of these things are things that I know, Pete, you're incredibly passionate about. But what I'm suggesting, if we frame it, for people to stop, there must be an investment in their setting, so creating environments and routines that work. There must be something in their appearance. Are they ready for whatever they're supposed to be doing? So if you're supposed to go for a walk, then are you ready to do that? And then manner. Are they motivated? Are they ready to do what they need to do? And if someone's doing that, guess what they're doing? They're creating a balance between their backstage and their front stage, and they're not spending their backstage preparing for their front stage. We are more than just our social settings. We need to love others as we love ourselves, is a very, very well-known biblical term, but that has some massive truth in it. Because if you inversely... flip that, you can't love anyone else more than you love yourself. So you're,

 

Pete Cohen:

You know, there's a...

 

Ray:

you know, committed to having to do that.

 

Pete Cohen:

There's a film with Will Farrell, I just can't remember the name of it, where he hears a narrative in his head, and it's Emma Thompson who's telling the story of him. It didn't do particularly well, but it was a beautiful film, because it definitely made me think even more about my narrative. And for years I didn't even know I had one. And then when I did, I just thought, well, that's just me. You know, to be able to stop, which is a key part of what we do and what we're encouraging you to do, to stop, step back, and observe. And then, you know, the thing that separates us from pretty much everything else is, okay, well, we have a choice here. What's the choice we're gonna make? And I think what you do so well is, again, shine that light on, look you can exercise and meditate and do all of these things because it's a tick box exercise because you think you should. As opposed to no I'm doing this because I want to manage myself better, I want to my backstage to be better because I know my I know ultimately my backstage affects my front stage and you know this morning I did a coaching session with a very well known artist who's in a band, young guy, world famous, and we were talking about this backstage, front stage, and obviously he could relate to that because he's an artist. He performs on stage and has done to thousands of people and he knows he's performing and he knows that what goes on behind here affects what goes on out there. And I suppose what we're also asking you to do is you might not be an artist like in a band or you might not be a professional athlete. But we're all going out every day and we're performing. And we have spoken about this before, but hopefully when you hear some of these messages, or maybe this is the first podcast that you're listening to, what Ray and I talk about, and Ray does this a lot in his work, is about knowing who you are at your core and knowing what your true value is. What is it you can bring, what is it you do bring to the world? What do you want to bring more to the world? And we have to stop. And I have to connect to that every day, Ray. I would say to someone else today, every day I have to connect to that. Because if I don't, I know I can give into temptation. I know I can get distracted. And it's not always the easiest thing to do. And discipline isn't something that always shines a massive hooray in people's lives. But I'm curious as we start to wrap this up, because we're now. 26 minutes and 35 seconds in. So you have nearly invested 2% of your day into listening to this. What would you like our listeners to go away and do?

 

Ray:

So 25 and 48, so yeah, we're around three minutes from the end. I think really it is making an investment in the same way as you do for performing, to go to work, to interact. So your personal life experiences with others, you need to balance that with a personal and intentional life with self. So I'll say that once more. What you need to do is have a balance so that you are not spending your life in... personal pursuit of experiences with others, but you balance that with an investment in time in yourself. And if you get that balance, it creates equilibrium, homeostasis, whatever you want to call it, it really does provide fruits. And I do believe, Pete, it's the origin of your Magnificent Seven, because they have to, you have to have this backstage. to conquer those because if you're only eating well when other people are around, guess what people do? They secretly stash food and

 

Pete Cohen:

now.

 

Ray:

eat it privately. So you need, so being a student of environments where you serve others, wonderful. So you're a servant leader when you're with others, but then you have to be a student and a servant to self and what's best for self. Love

 

Pete Cohen:

I loved

 

Ray:

you.

 

Pete Cohen:

what you said there. I didn't know that word discipline. I, I've disciple, I knew that, but as a, as a, as a, as a student, you know, to study with yourself, I think it's just what I would encourage everyone to do and enjoy it. Enjoy that exploration. Cause it's very easy to go, oh, this is terrible. It is what it is, right? That we're all in a place where we can do something with where we are. So. I really appreciate all of you and one of the things Ray and I have spoken about, which is not there yet, is finding a way for you guys to feedback to us in real time. You might listen to this and you might want to feed something back to us and we will put something in place that will allow you to do that easily. We don't know exactly what that's going to be yet but for the time being, reach out to us, whether that's on LinkedIn, Facebook, for me Facebook, Instagram. LinkedIn is a good space for both of us. Just reach out and let us know. What are you hearing? What are you doing? How can we help you? So I'm gonna leave the last words to you, Ray. I think we've got literally just, I don't know, 60 seconds perhaps. Any final words?

 

Ray:

Yeah, we're in the last 25 or so seconds. Yeah, I just enjoy life for everyone. We love spending these times, Pete, and we've said we're just having a conversation with two friends across the pond, and anyone that wants to join in, anyone that enjoys the conversation, then please just connect with us, and we enjoy it. Thank you.

 

Pete Cohen:

My pleasure. Have a great day guys. We'll see you soon. Perfect.