8 Aug, 2023

Pete Cohen:

Happy beautiful day or happy daily intentions. Ray, what's going on?

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Hey Pete, good morning to you. My morning, your afternoon, but this is quite a significant day for you. And I know that those that may have not listened to our podcast series at the moment, know that you're going on a pretty incredibly challenging, but also exploratory journey of self discovery and rebalancing where you are. Can you just share with the listeners? what

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

today is and the journey you've been on.

 

Pete Cohen:

I most definitely will, but first off, I've got a bone to pick with you because you're late. We booked in this morning and your alarm didn't go off, but

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Yep. I

 

Pete Cohen:

it's

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

think

 

Pete Cohen:

all good.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

what we can have a chat about that. I think it's a Saturday here. And I've just spoke to my wife. The last thing we remember was there was a decision made by the house that we would watch The Last Mission Impossible before we went to see the new one. So we started watching it and neither my wife or I can remember what happened behind, beyond a certain scene because

 

Pete Cohen:

You'll

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

we

 

Pete Cohen:

have

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

both

 

Pete Cohen:

to watch

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

woke.

 

Pete Cohen:

it.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

The kids had left us and turned

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

everything off and then we went to bed. So it was what we call in our home a movie night, but it wasn't really a movie night because the kids probably all turned to each other and said, should we all go to bed or in the basement or somewhere else? Cause mum and dad just fell short. And then we are where we are on Saturday morning. So yeah, I do apologize. I can

 

Pete Cohen:

That's all good.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

clearly tell you that- mornings are not my favorite space. And as we

 

Pete Cohen:

Mm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

grow in knowledge of each other, you're a morning person, but we've got five hours difference. It

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

means that the best time for us to meet is your lunchtime, which is

 

Pete Cohen:

Thanks for watching!

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

my seven o'clock. And I'm hoping if someone listens to this a Saturday morning at seven in the morning, I'll have some empathy

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

from some, but I'll have some others go, no, you should have been up at six.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah, yeah, well, you know, there's a few things that you that you mentioned there, which is about the more we get to work with each other, the more we understand each other, the more we grow. together and it's a beautiful thing. We've had some amazing feedback from people. I reached out to a number of people. I put a number of posts out there and said, look guys, tell us what you think of the podcast because we're here for one reason, we wanna serve. Ray and I are good friends and we've been on a journey together. And as you said right at the beginning, this is a significant day. Today marks the, it would have been my wife's, it's a funny thing to say it would have been. And I kind of have been thinking about this quite a lot. would have been or it is a 39th birthday, right? And it was also would have been our ninth year of marriage, our wedding anniversary. And my father-in-law who I live with, it would have been his 40th year of being married to his wife who was my wife's mother who passed away a few years ago. So yeah, it's one of those days where you can't help but reflect. Even though Ray, I'm not one of those people that really marks dates down with huge significance. However, you know, I do appreciate this day and I want to talk because I asked you yesterday, I've been away for a couple of weeks with friends and I was in Cheltenham yesterday, which is a place I was at university. It was amazing seeing so many people who I knew back in the late late 80s and before that I was with a friend of mine in Gloucestershire who I was also at university with and it was very cathartic, it's been very helpful. But today I saw on Facebook memories, you know, it's one of those things, do I look at it? Do I not look at it? And I wanted to embrace it and there was a video of this day last year when Hannah and I had My wife had been having this treatment. For those of you that don't know this, my wife wasn't given very long to live. She was given 18 months to live. 11 years ago, sorry, in 2011, she was given 18 months. We found a treatment, we went to America. This treatment saved her life. It was miraculous. And we went on to live together, to get married, to have a beautiful time. She got re-diagnosed in April 22, and she passed away. um 10 weeks ago so massively challenging sorry she got re-diagnosed in 21 um and it's been difficult and as I'm sure anyone can understand and grief is something that I think you can only understand if you experience it seems to come in waves but I looked at this Facebook memory yesterday and What was ironic about it was we had just come back from her, haven't been to Germany for the third time for this pioneering treatment, and she was doing so well. And I was watching it and thinking, my God, that was only a year ago. This turning point, this wonderful miraculous, she's beating this again. And unfortunately, it didn't turn out that well, you know, obviously not well at all, because she's not here. So. You've helped me for our listeners that don't know this, you and I spoke for days literally every day, sometimes for an hour, sometimes for two hours as you guided me and we were just there for me. But you said something to me that was one of the most challenging things that I've ever heard anyone say. And on one level I know that it makes sense, but on another level it was like that doesn't make sense. Do you want to tell me what you told me about suffering and grief?

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Yeah, again, just to qualify this on this extraordinary journey you're on, one of the things as we've got to know each other is you've been pretty open. And in today's day and age, this is, I would say, unusual, but pretty open about who I am. And we've got and we've learned to embrace each other in terms of our truths. We're not judging each other. And I think the first thing I would say is that we live in a world where For many people, it's very difficult for them to even comfortably explore something for fear of offending another person. And I have every sympathy for people that go out of their way to offend others. But I think there's a big distinction between having this conversation with someone who genuinely is interested and someone who genuinely dismisses you. And I think for me in our conversation, we've... learn to grow and learn from each other. So in my construction, my faith is quite important. And there's a verse from the Bible that I literally was the most challenged by when I heard it many years ago. And I said, what does this mean? Who possibly can do this? And it's become one of my favorite quotes. So it talks about rejoicing in your suffering. Because when you rejoice in your suffering, you understand what perseverance and patience is. And in that season of leaning in against patience and perseverance, and really relying on the fact that it is a season you'll get through, you start to develop character. Because a bit like anything, when something's put under stress, it starts to change its form. And that's where the word transformation comes from, because there's movement, transform, moving beyond one space. So rejoicing your suffering gives you patience, perseverance, which then gives you character. And then in character, there is hope. And this is where anyone listening to this, they could be sequentially thinking, okay, and the last part is explicitly about my faith, because it says in hope, the Lord does not disappoint, because he pauses Holy Spirit. into your heart. Now, reference to the Holy Spirit is the connective tissue that we have with God. And I don't want to get into the debates about the Godhead, whether there's a Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, or God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But when Jesus ascends after rising after three days, for those people that are in that space of believing, he says, I'm going to leave you a comforter. So it's invisible. And we, Pete, always talk about... the tangible and the intangible. And we've spoken about Hannah, and you've mentioned it here, intangibly, her memory, her existence will never leave you. And I'm saying you must celebrate that. Because if your focus is on the fact that she's tangibly not here, and that's everything about the definition of your relationship with her, it's gonna leave you in a very vulnerable space because you're gonna sit there and go, I don't have. Whereas I think my encouragement is that in

 

Pete Cohen:

Mm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

the incredibly tough season you're going through, you do have something. And when Hannah was here, if I was to ask you this question, which sounds ridiculous, but I will, the intangible aspects of your relationship with Hannah would have been the way in which she impacted your heart. And we spoke in one of the previous podcasts. about this notion that I've always played around with and you've kind of embraced the head heart habit. So there was this process where you lived this very busy life and you said, Ray, I was busy being busy from TV celebrity to multiple author of 20 books. I mean, most people would like to write one book

 

Pete Cohen:

Hahaha.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

in 20 books, coaching people, selling up businesses. You were in the fast lane running, serving and helping other people. But just as a catch up for those that weren't aware, you shared really vulnerably that the intangible aspects that existed in your life was fear of losing your parents, fear of losing the success. So you were in this pace that you've acknowledged was there, you were just keeping going, because I think one of your terms is, I didn't want to be found out. So if I keep the momentum up, the noise, The momentum of life won't allow me to get too close to these intangible thoughts of imposter syndrome, fear of loss.

 

Pete Cohen:

Hmm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Well, you then meet Hannah because of a extraordinary time in history when all air traffic is counseled or postponed for a period of time because of the volcanic ash that erupted

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah,

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

from

 

Pete Cohen:

ash

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Iceland.

 

Pete Cohen:

cloud.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

And you meet Hannah. So you had, as we've talked about for many, a stop moment and in the stop, you had this interaction with Hannah. And then you say, I didn't know her as I thought. So what we all do, and if you're listening to this podcast, we do this, we meet people and we use our neck top computer, which has all these memories, and we decide based on the way someone looks, their label, their physical label, their tangible label, whether they're a nice person or not. Generally, many of us do that. It's a fast track. And you met this extraordinary woman, and since then you've gone through periods of having to stop, having to act, until this time a few weeks back where she's departed and transitioned on. So I have only got the best piece of advice I've got from you and I've been very honest is my faith, which is she is gone in person, but you have something that I would encourage you to hold onto. and celebrate, but it is an intangible aspect of Hannah. Your thoughts to that.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah, I thank you so much for just giving another perspective on that and for our listeners as well. Because I suppose whether you're a religious person or not, being able to rejoice in suffering is a beautiful thing. And I couldn't think of anything better to do today. Well, actually there's a few things I want to do today and one of them is being with my father-in-law. But being with you, right, just spending this little bit of time on this day, and when this goes out and, you know, in a week's time or so, that people will also get to, to listen to this conversation. You know, do conversations change lives? I think they can. I think, you know, from what you take away, because death is a subject that a lot of people steer away from, and I loved what you said about the tangible and the intangible. And this is something we are going to do a lot of work on together, you and I, and we will talk about this. We will philosophize. We will delve into this subject because I think it's one of the most interesting areas of life, of what we can't see. And like fear, you know, you can't see it, but I think we've all experienced fear. And what you said there about Hannah is so true that... To me, it is her 39th birthday. I'm not saying it was. No, it is. It's her 39th birthday, right? You know, that to me is what this is. It's not like, oh, she's gone. She's still here. In my mind, in my world, in my reality. And I appreciate the fact that I can celebrate in what we, many of the things we experienced, many of the things that we did, the laughter, everything. It's like, that's not over. It's still there. And this is something I'm still working on. And I just want to tell you a little bit about my father-in-law because, you know, he's, he's an incredible human being. So many people watch the funeral, the live broadcast like you did. And I was with a friend of mine who watched him. And he said to me yesterday, he said, please tell Jerry, I was so inspired by him. When Jerry lost his wife, Hannah's mother, he looked after Hannah's mum for 11 years. She had early onset dementia. And that was tough. And when she died, he didn't allow himself to grieve. He just didn't. I mean, and I think that's what a lot of people do. I'm not a grief expert. I know you're not a grief expert, but we love to understand and love to maybe point people in the right direction who maybe need help in certain areas. And my brother and my brother's wife have helped Jerry with his grief. And what I love about him is this time round, he is allowing himself to feel. And he's allowing himself to feel the rawness of losing his wife and losing his daughter. But he knows that he can feel the feeling, but it doesn't last. Sometimes it maybe lasts longer than others, but this too shall pass, it passes. And then a few podcasts ago, we talked about Victor Frankel and Frankel talked about... finding meaning in the suffering, seeing something beyond the suffering that we can become stronger because of what we go through and what we celebrate, what we acknowledge. And like I said, I'm a novice in this whole grief thing. You know, my mum has passed away a couple of years ago, my dad five years ago, and this was more painful, but it was, I'm sure I was better able to deal with this because I've experienced it before. And let's be honest, Ray, we would love to help people move through the different seasons in their life. So let me put this back to you just in terms of to rejoice to, is that the word? Is it to rejoice in the suffering? Just can you...

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Yeah, just specifically for those that want to, I think it's Romans 5 verses three to five. And again, biblical interpretation, and we won't go down that rabbit hole, but generally, here's the interesting thing as I interpret biblical advice. In effect for me, the sovereignty of God saying, this is what I advise. So from my interpretation, which is intangible because it's based on faith. And Hebrews 11 says, being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you cannot see. Now, if you're in business and someone sits there and the board look at you and go, right, where are we with this board or progress? And you looked around to everyone in the board and you said, uh, let me just say to you all, I'm sure of what I hope for. And I'm certain of what I cannot see. That might be your last comment you made at that board level. So let me qualify

 

Pete Cohen:

Hmm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

that faith is focused. on what we cannot see, but we know it's there. And that means it's a topic that no one can disprove and no one else can

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

prove, because it's just a state of being and existence. So when the Bible says rejoice in your sufferings, it says it for one reason, powerfully it is a recommendation, but more importantly, it's the reverse of what we can see. So it's saying there's something more than what's in our tangible world.

 

Pete Cohen:

Mmm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

And you know this with Hannah, but if you have a conversation with someone who's never had the privilege to meet Hannah, and I had a privilege to meet Hannah once, and we were

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

meant to meet when we came back last year to the UK, it means that you're gonna explain who she was to you as you are in this podcast, but people don't have a literal reference, but they have a literal reference to you. They can hear your voice. And that means the relationship between the tangible and the intangible, so into each other and empathy

 

Pete Cohen:

Mm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

and the ability to connect with people. It really is a heart condition and I don't wish to trigger anyone who's got a heart condition or had surgery or lost someone they know through a heart condition. But the heart condition I'm talking about is the best possible heart condition and it's one of openness and empathy so that you start to understand that someone you connect with people in your family, your friends, your community, colleagues at work, they are more than just their tangible self. And Pete, I think

 

Pete Cohen:

Mm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

one of the things I'd like to ask you with all your expertise is working with people. We had this conversation yesterday. There is a pretty strong preoccupation with the tangible things of things. So and we see that some of that's really important, you know, weight loss, excuse me, the way you look. you know, hair, makeup, obviously we don't need hair because God's blessed us with these wonderful bald heads. But what's your thoughts when I say that the world is really fixed on the tangibles of the world?

 

Pete Cohen:

It's just a massive chasm that we could open up and as explorers, because I look at you and I as explorers with this podcast. And I've been exploring the lot, the podcast we've done, as I said, a few weeks ago, I've very rarely, if I record a podcast to go back and listen to it, I've listened to the one we released last week three times. And every time I listened to it, I think, Oh, this is so fascinating to stop. Right. And that's one of the biggest bits of feedback we've had from people that are listening. the importance of stopping. So when you were talking just then about the tangible and intangible, I was thinking, let's talk about you and now you and I, what does what is our relationship? Is it tangible? Could you show someone? Could you explain to someone what it is? And if you try to explain it, would it really do it justice? Our relationship is beyond words for me. It is the most tangible, what some people would say, the most tangible intangible. And that might be a complete, like that doesn't make any sense, but it's the most real thing. And... What I have really embraced with you is the power of faith. When I studied psychology at university, the work I found really interesting was of the work of Albert Bandora. So many theories, I just find it really hard to the intellectual side of what someone was trying to say. Sometimes it was confusing. But Bandora was always talking about the efficacy, the belief that someone has in themselves. Where that comes from, I'm fascinated. Like in you, I see it in your faith. The gentleman I interviewed yesterday, when that podcast comes out, Tom Herbert, his faith, it's so tangible. You can feel it. It's palpable. The faith that people have. I have faith that I am doing the right thing by my wife. I have faith that she would be or is. happy with what I'm doing with my life and... The biggest thing is having faith that everything is just gonna be just right. Which again, something she shared with me, but something that we haven't spoken about too much with you. We have mentioned it once before, but this week you're about to start a new position at a new university, but you for... what for most six weeks, eight weeks, three months, went through so much uncertainty with a family, with your wife, your four kids living in a foreign country. You still had faith. And I watched that. It's so tangible, yet not everyone can see it. That's what I've got to say on that. I wonder what your take

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Yeah,

 

Pete Cohen:

on that is.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

I think I love the conversation about the tangible and the intangible. It connects to a passion of mine and you've related to part of my identity is teaching and I'm sure there may be some people on the podcast who have got evidence of it of people that I've taught who are listening to the podcast and they will remember bits from classes perhaps from over the years but if we look at brands which as we've discussed before, dominate. Automatically people think about Coca-Cola, an iPhone, Tesla, and they are consumption products, they're labels, they're tangible artifacts. But really when you look at them, the reason people buy them is what they help say about themselves. So clothing, young people very much connected disproportionately to the way they look, their fashion, because it's a tangible. piece of clothing, a tire, but it has an intangible impact. It's called impression management. It's the way people think. So you're quite right. Eight months ago, I was told that a situation of the institution I was working with was in a situation where, because of financial reasons, they were gonna have to make decisions. And one of those was the contemplation, we talked about that as well, about... running the institution with me no longer working there. And this had significance because I moved from England to America to work for this institution. And it was a period of time when I thought, okay, what does this mean? And I think I've shared with you, my father said, well, it could mean you're coming back to England or it could mean that there's another job out there. Well, that was last year, November. So if you look at where we are, it's almost like, as the first time I thought about it, it's almost approaching nine months in that season. But for that period, halfway through something else, I use the gestation period, I suppose, at three months, there was clarity that something was happening because I was getting approaches and I've arrived at one decision, but I've had the privilege. in between everything you've been going on that you've always asked me, of telling you about, oh, it could be this. I come to a door, is that one gonna be opened? One of them opened, and then my wife and I and the kids decided, no, we're not gonna walk through that door threshold. Then another door came. So there was a period where you were asking me, well, what are you gonna do? You've got all these options. And I literally didn't have an idea because on an intangible level, I hadn't found a sense of peace. So I ended up. withdrawing my application, even when I got shortlisted to the final two, I had to be really honest and say, guys, I've looked at this. Thank you for everything you've done. I need to withdraw from this because in practicality, my wife and I won't, our kids can't tangibly move to this city. It's just too much. So we've reduced everything down to we're going to either move back to England or we're going to find a job that we believe from our faith God has for us. that means that we can still live in the same place. And there are lots of factors why we thought that was important. And that's exactly what's happened. And we are very, very thankful. We don't take it for granted. We just really believe that worked out that way. But we were prepared to come back. In fact, Pete, we spent several times talking about what it looked like moving back and how we would work together. So,

 

Pete Cohen:

It's that

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

yeah.

 

Pete Cohen:

hot. It's that whole thing of, again, be great to delve into this subject another time around open to everything and attached to nothing. And I was really privy. I feel privileged to have watched you go through that, to be offered a job at one of the most prestigious universities in the world. And, you know, for you to realize, you know, that's just not for me. And I know that you must have had some doubt during that time, but your faith was stronger than your doubt. And what a great thing that people that come on this journey with us is that you develop the most tangible intangible or the most intangible tangible however you want to look at this that you have that faith that blind faith that um and funny when i was in interviewing tom who's a christian as well and he was talking about the biblical story of walking on water you know the faith that You can do that. And when people listen to that story, again, it's a very similar story to what you did, to just know that he needed to do something else. It wasn't what he thought he should do and what others expected of him to do. And as we draw this podcast to a close, this is just going to be a short podcast here today. But we would like you to stop at some point, whether it's for a minute. or 30 seconds or 30 minutes or however long. And I would invite everybody to just stop and contemplate. how wonderful it is to be alive, you know, that we all have this opportunity to do something with our lives. And to mark on this day, whenever you're listening to this, but the day we were recording this, the day that would have been my wife's 39th birthday, that she's becoming more and more known for five words of just getting on with it. And for us, it is about being intentional with whatever it is you wanna be intentional about. We want to hear from more of you. We want to know where are you looking to make some gains? What conversations would you like Ray and I to have? Who would you like us to interview? And where are you looking to move on? Where are you looking to make improvements in your life? But I appreciate you, Ray, taking the time out to mark this day, because we normally record our podcast on a Tuesday. It's Saturday today, the 29th of July. Any final words from you today?

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

A couple of thoughts, one of them for people, I think he passed in 2018 actually, but someone who's very seminal in athletics and you and I do share a love of sport. There was someone, I think it's 1954, Roger Bannister ran the first sub

 

Pete Cohen:

full

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

four

 

Pete Cohen:

minute.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

minute mile. And the reason I mentioned that is that was something that many people thought was impossible. not just for a day or a week, but hundreds and thousands of years people have tried to do this feat. But what I'd encourage everyone to do Pete is to find out what happened after he was successful. How many people have run the sub-minute, sub four-minute mile now? And you'll see that there's this incredible ascension. So the question for me is what has changed because man was still tangible. but something intangibly changed. People believed it was possible because they saw someone else do it. And I think that our relationship and the community that we all strive to build around, we are made better by being supported by each other because the tangible support is one thing, which is enormous, but the intangible benefit. And

 

Pete Cohen:

Hmm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

I'd like to end by asking you, you know, Is it, there's a statement, is it better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all? Let's play with that a little bit and say,

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah, yeah,

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

is

 

Pete Cohen:

I

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

it

 

Pete Cohen:

mean,

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

better

 

Pete Cohen:

I,

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

to have

 

Pete Cohen:

yeah.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

loved someone tangibly and intangibly and then lost

 

Pete Cohen:

Hmm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

the tangible element than never to have had the love in the first place? That's a question and you can ask, answer.

 

Pete Cohen:

I know the answer to the question is, you know, and I feel very lucky that I had the time that we loved each other the way that we did a fantastic couple. And she is with me and will with me forever. I really appreciate what you just said there, Ray. And as we end this, if you've been triggered by what we've said in any way, shape or form, because grief is something that is, is it, it's a, I think it's quite difficult and challenging to And if you're grieving, I would encourage you to reach out to some, even reach out to me. I can point you in the right direction to a number of people who specialize in that field. I was working with a psychotherapist before my wife died because I didn't know how to manage this season and it was extremely helpful. But what Frankel was about was about hope beyond where we are. And that's why I love my father-in-law because he's looking to the future of what he wants to do. And I'm looking to the future. I want people to be more intentional, to listen to this as we build a community of people all around the world. And that becomes something so tangible that you're in our community, you just feel strengthened by our example and we wanna be strengthened by your example. And that's why we wanna hear from you. So, Ray. Have a wonderful day. I thank you so much for spending some time with me. I know you've got something going on and I'm gonna spend some time with my family over the weekend and we're gonna be intentional.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Absolutely. Thank you for this time and just thinking about you today and obviously this mixture of absence of something tangibly. But my hope and my prayer, my desire is that you're just filled with all of the goodness of the intangible aspects of what that relationship was and it's a true celebration. I know there's a celebration tomorrow with family. That would be my encouragement is it's in those celebrations like your funeral. I've been to sadly lots of different funerals, but that that's right up there in terms of it being a true celebration of Hannah. You and Hannah's dear father and her friends were incredible because it was let's spend some time celebrating this incredible person. And normally funerals don't go that way because we've been taught we've got to be solemn because tangibly they've moved on. But what you guys decided to do is, no, we're gonna invest in the intangible, which I thought was beautiful.

 

Pete Cohen:

I look forward to many more discussions around some of these beautiful areas. But for now, it's a goodbye from me.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

and is a goodbye from him.

 

Pete Cohen:

Good night.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Take care.