26 Sep, 2023

Pete Cohen:

happy, mindful intentions. Good morning to you. Ray, how are you?

 

Ray:

Good morning, Pete. Great to be here again. How are you?

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah, I am, I'm in a very good s-place, s-place? I'm in a very good, a very good place at the moment where things are changing. They're definitely changing. And I've really enjoyed these conversations that we've had. I think the more you and I talk, the more kind of, we get to the heart of some topics that people are finding really interesting. The last few podcasts have been about front stage and backstage and kind of what's going on behind the scenes and that kind of stopping to inquire about the experience of being ourselves. I think it's a very challenging thing to do for lots of reasons but I think it's one of the most incredible things to do. What what sort of feedback have you been getting from people around the front and backstage?

 

Ray:

Well, I've shared some with you, and literally as we were just talking, I've had people requesting some more information, particularly I sent it on Instagram where the link is not live, so I've just sent it to them via the messaging service on there. But generally, I think people are interested in the fact that there are two forms of communication going on, one that we can have with ourselves, the backstage, and one we have with the world. and if our conversation with the world dominates, and if our backstage is just time prepping for our social interaction, then we can end up with imbalance. And imbalance has all sorts of things, and a good example is just people pleasing and not being your authentic self. So I'm excited by that feedback because it means that people are connecting with the fact that being busy, being busy. It could be said, Pete, when you said that in the past, that you spent a lot of time front staging and becoming really good at performance outwardly. And what we're saying is that there's time to perform inwardly because it's therapeutic, it's good for you, and it brings about balance.

 

Pete Cohen:

When you discuss that and you talk about it, again, I just start thinking about what's going on backstage for me. I was thinking, is it like this for a lot of people where you're not really listening to what's going on? It's almost like someone's talking to you, but you're not listening. You're listening to something else and you're being guided by that. Does that create some discourse within people? From my experience, most definitely, yes. Of course, I don't know. everybody. And then the other thing I was thinking, Ray, is if you could hear what goes on inside people's minds today based on what was going on inside people's minds 20, 30, 40, 50, 100 years ago, what's different? Is there more noise going on inside people's minds? I would imagine, again, I don't know, I don't know whether we can prove it, that there's more going on because there is more going on externally in our worlds right now that... often we get engaged with to the point where we're not really aware of the narrative, we're not really aware of how we are moving through the world and how that is impacting us. I just wondered what your thoughts are on that before we do a bit of a deeper dive into stopping.

 

Ray:

Well, if we look at the various ages that society has gone through, the agricultural age, I suppose in recent times, the industrial revolution, information was driven by our explicit immediate physical environment. So you may be a farmer or an engineer, you may be someone in a coal mine, things were very much... at arm's length, you engaged it. So information gathering was really predicated on your geographical location. What we have today for young people is they have a global infrastructure of information through digital means. They're digital immigrants. We're digital, sorry, we're digital immigrants, they're digital natives. So we've spent our time transitioning. We remember the time when there was just one phone in the house and it was in the hallway and you're trying to have a private conversation that the whole house couldn't hear. We remember the phone boxes. Yep, we remember all of that. So,

 

Pete Cohen:

Eileen.

 

Ray:

yeah, dialing. And so my empathy is very much for the way things are, but actually it's infiltrated all of us. You know, if you're saying that.

 

Pete Cohen:

In what way do you think? I mean, I remember having a ZX81, and then a ZX Spectrum, where literally you'd have to load a game and it could take 30 minutes, and sometimes it would crash and you'd have to start again. That you'd almost have to have a degree of patience.

 

Ray:

So your focus is all on that, but now you could be gaming, you know, whatever it might be. If you look at something like, I don't know, Fortnite came out a few years ago and turned over a billion dollars relatively quickly, and they gave the game away for free, but then kids would buy skins, and if you got to certain levels, the characters would dance, and the dances came from contemporary, recognized dance moves in the world. So all of a sudden now there's this convergence of culture and music and visuals and then they've probably got something else going on in the background. Particularly young people are averse at dealing with lots of different data sets coming at them all at the same time. However, that means they have a diminished focus on one thing. And we're seeing that play out in the way they deal with the world when they're asked to do one thing. So responsibility, I will say, is your ability to respond. Well, if you've got lots of data sets to deal with, your ability to deal with one of them very clearly and succinctly becomes more challenge. It's not impossible, but it becomes more challenge. So one of the things is,

 

Pete Cohen:

Hmm.

 

Ray:

I think in this day and age for all of us with all this information is how do we focus? So if you're trying to sleep, we had a conversation yesterday before you go to bed and you said something and I smiled. because you're doing this, and we're talking about it now, that you turn off your WiFi at home because you're trying to detach from that world when you go to bed. Well, I know in my experience, teaching and working with young adults at university for many, many years now, I've often asked them do they switch their phone off at night, and I can tell you the majority never switch their phone off. They... if they hear a beep or something happens, the last thing they do, the last friend they say goodnight to is normally their phone. And it's the first thing they see in the day and they're back with it all through the day. That's a completely different lived experience from when we were younger.

 

Pete Cohen:

It's interesting because I just start to think about, well, how we've evolved. So we've definitely evolved to the point where we're able to live in this modern world. Will we evolve to be how perhaps some computers are working now where they are able to do multiple things at a time? Rather than because we're not evolved to do that. You know, we can multitask, obviously, but we have evolved to focus on one thing. very well and be able to do that. Do you think that there will become a time in the future where we will be able to do more than one thing at a time and do both of those things as well as each other?

 

Ray:

I mean, stargazing and futuregazing is not something I like to do too much of because I think AI can create a lot of fear in

 

Pete Cohen:

Mmm.

 

Ray:

us, but humans have a capacity. We have a pro, the modern commuter is based on our brain. We have an active conscious mind, but we have this subconscious mind and part of what we're talking about today is that when we're backstage, understand the relationship between our consciousness, which is a small part of our brain, but it makes a lot of the decisions. But the decisions are driven by our sensory felt state, and that's the engine room. So it's a bit like a big oil tanker. It takes a long time to turn or move, but if it does move, it's because the captain of the ship, your conscious mind says, right, we're changing direction. because the engine is only capable of firing up and moving the ship. It doesn't direct it. So part

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

of a back stage is recognizing that if we slow down, we can start to become mindful. In an information age where we're overloaded in the front stage, and it gets so much so that we don't really have any downtime. So this front stage, back stage is becoming indivisible because of information. we now have to explicitly slow down. So when you turn your wifi off at night, you're going to sleep, you're trying to say to the world, this is Pete's time, this is my recuperation time, this is my sleep time. That's healthy because you need that time. But it's

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

very difficult for a young person who basically sees their phone as an extension of their identity.

 

Pete Cohen:

You know, I think I like what you said there about, well, I'm not into this future gazing because I don't know. And what difference does it matter if I knew anyway, rather than what's actually going on now? And I think what I see is the lifestyle, the way we are living is definitely resulting in a lot more mental health challenges, a lot more issues around anxiety and depression and suicide. There's no question about. how I think modern living is affecting people's health, mental and physical health. And it's like, well, what can we do about it? And this is obviously one of the things that we talk about, which is just about, look, let's stop and step back and let's observe what's going on. And before we started recording today, Ray, you and I were talking about the power of intention, but behaving in ways that perhaps are not serving you. Can you just elaborate a little bit on what we were saying before so our listeners can get a sense of where we're coming from with this?

 

Ray:

Yeah, I think the... Oh, you just reminded me, thank you. Your two hoodies you sent to me have arrived. So,

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

thank you.

 

Pete Cohen:

Well, yeah,

 

Ray:

Just for...

 

Pete Cohen:

just so, again, our listeners know, when I came to see you, we've met once before when you came back to the UK, but I came to see you in Indianapolis, Indiana, and I bought you a couple of jumpers, my 365, but they were the wrong size and actually they might fit you now, but that's another story. But one of the things we've spoken about, My365, in this whole daily intentions piece, so we've now got those hoodies with daily intentions on, and I'm, have you put them on yet?

 

Ray:

Yep, they fit. Yeah, for the listeners, I like baggy hoodies and these are extra large and they fit well. And my two daughters were the other ones too, to school. So in this region, everyone's looking at MI365. But to your point, and go back, sorry, I distracted you with that,

 

Pete Cohen:

That's

 

Ray:

is

 

Pete Cohen:

so

 

Ray:

that

 

Pete Cohen:

good, that's so good.

 

Ray:

being intentional. is very nuanced. So are we talking about being intentional in your front stage? So that means being intentional in your social settings with others, and then being intentional with yourself. So I think today we're talking about being intentional in those two spaces. And then what does intention mean? When you're intentional, should it always be something that serves yourself productively and positively, or serves others? Well, there are lots of habits and things in the world that have a head-on in. dimension.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

So food

 

Pete Cohen:

When you say

 

Ray:

can

 

Pete Cohen:

hedonic,

 

Ray:

be a source.

 

Pete Cohen:

can you just give your interpretation of what hedonic means to you?

 

Ray:

Yeah, hedonic, I mean, we are all sense beings and we've talked about the fact that we make sense of the world through our five senses and our hedonic sensory system is driving, I suppose, pleasure from our sensory space, particularly touch, taste, smell, and we can all, you know, if you smell a fragrance that you like, there is an element of hedonism going on. because what it does do, go back to the captain of the ship, the data sensors come in, or it can smell something, but then your subconscious kicks in, I like that smell. So intention is very complex. So the rally call to be intentional, I think can be confusing to some people because it's like, well, intentional doing what? And then we can do cliched headlines like, you gotta eat well. Well, what does that mean? That goes down so many paths. You've got to sleep well. And I think some of the feedback is that, and I would encourage people to feedback, is what is it particularly for you that you want to be more intentional about? Because everyone's unique. And I suppose this discussion today is about trying to get a balanced perspective so that people can then take from it and then direct it explicitly to themselves. because one size doesn't fit all.

 

Pete Cohen:

So let's look at that for a moment because we would love everyone to take a moment and think where would you like to be more intentional? For me, one of those is definitely with cooking at the moment and just eating better. I can be more intentional about that. But again, what we were talking about before, which is where are you intentional but you don't want to be? Where is it that you're behaving in a way and you know that you're behaving in a way that you kind of wish that you didn't? This is what really interests me and this is something again we have spoken about you and I before. I just love your thoughts on that.

 

Ray:

Very delicate space because we then start getting into prescription and moral and ethical codes and I feel it's really important to be sensitive about that

 

Pete Cohen:

Monthly.

 

Ray:

because you know I'm very mindful about it that we appreciate who our audience is, where people are and we already know from some of the people that we know we serve that they have all different lifestyles and situations. There are people that can't run around the block, for example, with exercise, because they might be in a wheelchair. So then they have to make specific decisions about their situation. So I'm very cautious about making a one-size-fits-all. What I'm saying is I want to hear from someone who discovers, because they've given themselves more time in their backstage, they discover their mindfulness, what they choose to do. as opposed to me telling them what that is.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

And that's very subtle. And it's arguably different from what the world of, let's say, dieticians have done. They will prescribe. And then if you go online now, you can watch doctors argue about diet. So for me, that means you gather information, you're mindful, and you just discover yourself. Because I think the... the geniuses in with all of us to find out what works for us. Sometimes it's trial and error, you're failing forward. Sometimes you need good counsel and people you trust. But I would say, even on a podcast like this, we are not sitting here prescribing an explicit lifestyle change for you. We're saying the principle of intentionality is powerful. And for most people to become intentional, they need to slow down and get a perspective and a balance between their backstage and the front stage. and I believe, and I'm excited by the prospect, that we all take the journey in. So if someone's listening here and they've been a vegan for a year and they've really benefited from it, I'm delighted. If someone else has been intermittent

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

fast, or someone's been on a carnival diet and this is just diet, then great, that works for them. For now, because everything is about sustainability as well. So that's why that is a challenge for me.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah, I like

 

Ray:

about

 

Pete Cohen:

it.

 

Ray:

19.

 

Pete Cohen:

I'm all over that. I'm like you. I think it is a very delicate space because I can assume that I know better, but you know, I don't. And I like the way you encourage people like I do to find your own way. Because, you know, as we face each other now, you know, my right is your left. So to think that I am right and you are wrong and to come across that way, that's not my way. However, what I do like to do with people, let's look at behavior perhaps that people want to stop or habits they want to break. I have always enjoyed giving people the perspective of whatever it is that you do that perhaps you wish you didn't do, or you want to stop, but you find it hard to stop, whatever that is. Again, it's hard not to kind of generalize around this, but my thoughts on that are, you do what you do because there's part of you or maybe still wants to do it, that there's still something that you get from doing it. Like I've spoken really publicly about when my wife was dying, when my mother was dying, when my dad was dying, I sought solace in food that there is a part of me that goes, I know this isn't the best thing for me to eat, but I really want to eat it because it's giving me something in this moment. And I think it's very easy for humans to... blame and shame and criticize themselves. That I have always thought that we do what we do because there's part of us that still thinks that maybe that is the best thing for us to do. Or there's a, like I say, it's a delicate subject, but I think it's important. Like what I think, if I'm understanding you correctly, what you're encouraging people to do is to have that awareness of self and to become more curious about what is going on. Is that where you're kind of coming from?

 

Ray:

Yeah, I think, let's use your example, having sweets or candies, they would say in the states, they're simple carbohydrates. So they can elicit chemical response in the body and we can get highs, but there are also lows in there. So it's an addictive aspect. So sugar is more addictive than cocaine. Now I can shout that from the hilltops. But if someone is in that cycle and lifestyle, I believe they have to discover that for themselves if they ever

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

do discover that. So they have to slow down and have a moment of going, wow, is this what I'm doing? Because being told it, research shows doesn't change them. So me saying here's the right way and they're going the wrong way. We wouldn't have an epidemic of diabetes and... obesity in America and the UK, you know, it has to be about lifestyle and culture. And I think I read an article yesterday about someone living in America and then they went to Japan and just lifestyle changed their whole quality of life. And I think I read something crazy that only 4% of Japanese are obese. But yet you think about pan and... Sumo wrestlers and others, you might have a different perspective. But if you look at it in Western culture, I've forgotten what it is in the UK, I know in America now it's like 36%. So it's over a third of people are clinically or morbidly obese. Now that's a label. If I tell someone that, does that motivate them? Does that get them to think,

 

Pete Cohen:

You know.

 

Ray:

oh, I want to change? What they have to do is recognize where they are. And I think what you said is this backstage... aspect of stopping allows people to become mindful. And this is the exciting thing. You will discover more about you. No one else, you will discover more about you. It's a very fear-ridden space because slowing down, stopping in backstage, and

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

not preparing, not using the space of backstage to prepare for people pleasing and driving your performance in the world, but doing it for you is scary. It's the... It's the man in the mirror. It's

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

looking, woman in the mirror, looking at yourself and saying, okay. And that journey of self-discovery, the inward journey, is what I would advocate and encourage people to discover. And it doesn't mean they're gonna be perfect, because guess what? No one's perfect. That's the point.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah, I like this

 

Ray:

And

 

Pete Cohen:

conversation.

 

Ray:

I just

 

Pete Cohen:

Go on.

 

Ray:

learned the thing in this, because you probably, I used to watch it in the UK occasionally, but... America had a show once called The Biggest Loser. And what they did is they put people in their front stage through exercise regime, diet regime, and they were in a social setting. And people lost extraordinary amounts of weight and lifestyle. But sadly, if you look at all the research, almost into the 90 percentiles, those individuals in the show, when they were left to themselves, they went back to backstage, and they had to be self-motivated. they all put the weight on and then some. So front stage focus on a TV show has massive change when you've got that support. But none of us have the money to pay for a 24 hour support. And remember, it's support over a short period of time as well, so even on that show, if you sustain that all the time, you would soon get pretty fed up with those people in your life screaming at you and eventually you'd say, no, I'm doing it my way.

 

Pete Cohen:

Well, you know Ray, it's fascinating because there's a few things going on for me when you're talking about that. So one is definitely who we're here to serve, you know, and it's definitely serving the people that... want to do that inner work as opposed to we are not here to serve the people that want us to tell them what to do because there are there's a lot of people that want to be told what to do but I still think that has a place when someone does the inner work and they they're aware sometimes I think a lot of the time people then need to be told what to do but they're ready to do the work for themselves because there is a lot of confusion around what is the best thing for an individual to do for them to get the results they want. And I suppose that could possibly apply to any area of life. But the other thing that came to mind Ray is about that biggest loser thing, because I was actually asked to be on that show here, the English equivalent, but we did our own version of that called Inchloss Island, which we did in England, we did it in Mauritius, we did it in Sillutia, taking people who were overweight away. And what you said just made me realize that as much as... I wanted to do that work for people to go inside and really see what was going on. It was always a challenge to do because the other side of that Ray is that people need to be ready to do that and I suppose it's very easy to kind of do it in a superficial way rather than going to the root of something which sometimes as you said is fear ridden, it's uncomfortable. to realise perhaps why you behave in certain ways that don't serve you. But once again, this is such a big topic of conversations. I open up this massive box, but hopefully in opening up the box, we're giving our listeners the opportunity to just look at things with a fresh pair of eyes. But let me ask you that question because there is a space, there has to be a space where you instruct people, but only because they... are ready to be instructed. Tell me what your thoughts are about that.

 

Ray:

Well, I don't think we should be telling anyone what to do ever.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

So there's my position clearly. I think if you've been blessed with knowledge, then you respond to questions. So any clients I've ever worked with, I encourage them to ask questions.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

Because if someone is forced to ask a question. in this space is relative to their own experiences and their own journey and the question should inform anyone who's expert in the space of providing support. They should also be an empath and they can then start to empathise and understand where someone is, show compassion and in that value exchange anything's possible. But I don't advocate, and I've been in education for many years, coaching, consulting, I don't advocate telling anyone what to do. I think

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah. So

 

Ray:

we

 

Pete Cohen:

if

 

Ray:

all

 

Pete Cohen:

someone.

 

Ray:

can have opinions about things, but I think it's saying, weight loss is a good example. I might say to someone, what do you want? What is it you're looking for? And I'm trying to understand where they are. I need to find out where they're located. Otherwise, what I'm saying to them is, this is where you need to be. And

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

I think it's problematic. and history research suggests it's problematic when you do that.

 

Pete Cohen:

I think what I like, again, this is the way I work with people, it would be that questioning. So someone might say, well, tell me what to eat. And then you throw it back on them and say, well, what do you think you need to eat? Or what are you currently eating? How's that? So you're encouraging people to really take ownership of it. It'd be great to get some feedback from people because I think what you're saying is it might be quite radical for people. You know? But ultimately, I think when you know who you serve, and you and I have been serving people for a long time, and we've gotten, I think I've got some amazing results with people by creating the space for people to work things out for themselves. Because I remember for years working with people who would lose weight, and I would not tell them what to eat. That's just not my way. It's like helping them work it out for themselves. And then when you would meet someone, that had worked this out for themselves, they had owned what they were doing. I would then stand next to these people and it was like I was standing again next to someone who was far more powerful than the person that they were, that I'd have to often take a step back because it's like, whoa, you're walking in your greatness, you're walking in the person that you have become. and it was because they did it, right? And they then own what they've done. And I think when you own what you have done, it's, yeah, I'm sure you could still go back, but you get back much quicker or not go back at all because that's just not who you are. And this is such a fascinating conversation because that's what my work is really all about, Ray, is people owning and taking pride in what they've done. What's your thoughts on that?

 

Ray:

I think we all own what we do. That's the key to it. And people who are successful in this space or anything in personal wellness have decided to take responsibility. I said earlier, you know, that ability to respond. At a default state for many people, comfort is the key. when you recognize there's no such thing as comfort. So when someone sees someone with a lifestyle and they go, oh, you have this or this has worked out. Ordinarily, outside of extreme circumstances, but generally when you look at the patterns of behavior, people have had to sacrifice and being able to respond to the things that are required of them to get where they're going, whether we've, as we've been talking about weight loss, whether it's talking about finishing that book. investing in a relationship, whatever it might be, there's some discomfort. And I think we were discussing several books, there's the Salah of Not Giving an F, Mark Manson, he talks about, you know, life is full of problems, that's just inevitable. But if people are trying to resist problems, then they never move forward. And I agree with that, because if you're trying to resist problems, you just want comfort. Comfort is no responsibility. So no ability to respond, you just want to exist. And that's what we're talking about. But once you get into it, you can replace problems with ones that are easy to manage. So if someone decides that, you know, eating a bar of chocolate each day isn't working out for them, then they have to empower themselves to say, I have chocolate on my cheat day. And then they focus enjoying that chocolate bar on a Friday, as opposed to... a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, but that's something they have to articulate and someone working with them provides a

 

Pete Cohen:

I'm

 

Ray:

good

 

Pete Cohen:

out.

 

Ray:

support construct. But I'm just not comfortable being the person telling them or screaming at them or telling them what to do because all the stats work out. And I think many years ago I was involved in setting up one of the first cardiac rehabilitation programs with some wonderful people. doctors and clinical nurses but my job and I felt wholly inadequate to do this was to encourage these people to be physically active after they've had a heart attack bypass surgery. But they came in, they were blood pressure checked and they went through an exercise regime and I know you've done something similar and I did some research on this and what horrified me at the time, I'm just a young man, was that the research at the time, and it may not have changed, I haven't looked at it recently, 50% of people that have a heart attack or bypass surgery go back to the lifestyle that caused that six months

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

after the event, just six months. And that's always fascinated me over these years. And it speaks to what we're talking about, Pete, that if that person is still embedded in a habitual cycle, it's nothing's going to change because those habits are hardwired in and you have to change the circuitry to create meaningful change. And a good example is that the majority of people that have had a heart instance, those who have a successful transition, is a buddy system. So last year I had a very good former work colleague, a husband. Sadly had a heart attack and it was the one they call the widow maker and he's just one of the small sample of population who actually survived this incident and he did. And the doctors shared their views and he was over 300 pounds. He's 195 pounds now and when it happened I said to his dear wife, you know all the research suggests that he needs great support but he has to take control. and you have to be a really big fan. And it's extraordinary. That statement pales into insignificance as to what that family has done, because it's been transformation beyond anything I've witnessed. And in fact, his doctor has said, I don't think I've met anyone where you are, your bloods and everything. No one would know you'd had the situation you'd gone through. But he has empowered himself through use of backstage and then being able to exist in front of stage and it's wonderful to see but if he had been told what to do I don't think it would have been as good an outcome.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah, again, I don't know. I think that I know myself well enough and know that I had a coach for 16 years. And I think only one time he told me, and you have as well, Ray. You know, you've told me one time what you really thought in terms of, I don't know how you would phrase that, but the rest of the time, my perception is you've, in the work that we've done together, it's always been about you posing the questions. But also give me your, I think you've given me your opinion.

 

Ray:

Opinions are important in a trusting environment though.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

If you share your opinion with someone that you don't trust, it can be problematic. And I think I mentioned before the

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

Maya Angelou quote is that

 

Pete Cohen:

Yes.

 

Ray:

you remember things people say, you remember things people do, but you never forget the way people make you feel.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

And if you trust someone, then your resilience to their opinions, the tolerance or resilience levels much higher. because you know they're on your side. It's when someone gives you an opinion and you don't trust what they're telling you, you reject

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

it and it can set people back. So actually helping someone is not achieved, you set them back.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah, I think there's also something, this is going back to something we were talking about just before in this conversation around people that say, X saved my life, changed my life. And I've always said, no, they didn't do it, you did it. They were part of

 

Ray:

Yeah.

 

Pete Cohen:

the process, but it's yours. And again, that might not be what everyone wants to hear, but where you and I are coming from is helping people. work it out for themselves, to do that great work of observing oneself and being curious and realising that there's maybe more to you than meets the eye. Because I think that's one of the most empowering positions that most people ever find themselves in.

 

Ray:

Well, you've touched, yeah, you touched upon some attribution theory. We are as a species, we like to ultimately, although we say we don't, measure and attribute why something's happened. And when

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

we see people in the public eye and something changes, we want to know why this divorce is happening. We want to know why this has happened.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

We want to know how, you know, both of us are beautifully, folically challenged. But if we both, if I showed up with an afro. and people were pulling, it was coming out of my head, he's had a hair transplant. It would be a fascination to people that have got used to seeing me all these years the way I am.

 

Pete Cohen:

I'm sorry.

 

Ray:

So attribution is something, everyone wants to know the formula for life. And I'm saying the formula is very personal and that you should bring people around that you know, you love, you trust and set. the stage upright. So think about backstage, you have people backstage with you, prepping, wardrobe. Everyone letting you know when your time is to go into a social setting. That's what you should focus on is that team. I'll hand over to you because you're expert here, but if you think about Michael Jordan, who was in his backstage peak?

 

Pete Cohen:

Well, his Phil Jackson for one,

 

Ray:

Yeah.

 

Pete Cohen:

his mum, who was just, and his dad, I mean, just huge, huge support. You know, and that I think is such a huge element also of change in your life, is having that support around you, accountability. But what I would say, this has been a real, I'd call this a real open discussion. We've kind of talked about. perhaps what we weren't really going to talk about. We've just let the conversation flow. And once again, I would love to hear from people around, what's your feedback? Because we can have really meaningful conversations, which Ray and I have, but we would love to get you involved in the conversations. And one of the things we will start doing is doing some audios on LinkedIn, LinkedIn audio, where you can come and join us. And... you can get involved in these conversations because we'd love to learn from you. We definitely want to open up people's awareness and get some good conversations going. What do you, what do you reckon, right?

 

Ray:

100%, I think that's, it's the key to what we're doing here. Yes, we have discussions. Yes, we're sharing our thoughts and opinions around things, but ultimately we're trying to create an ecosystem where we listen to each other. And more importantly, we listen to those who listen to this. And whether you're a first

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Ray:

time listener or you've listened to many shows, it's absolutely. our role to just create an environment where you benefit from listening and your feedback therefore then is critical.

 

Pete Cohen:

So as we end this, bring this to a close, my commitment to the listeners is we will now put a date to do a LinkedIn audio and that will be something we could do fairly regularly and we'd love you to come along and get involved because we're doing this because it's the greatest work of our life and it's important. So any final words from you today, Ray? as we've

 

Ray:

Yeah,

 

Pete Cohen:

spent

 

Ray:

it looks

 

Pete Cohen:

nearly

 

Ray:

so...

 

Pete Cohen:

3% of our day, almost 3% of our day together.

 

Ray:

I was just saying it's a 3% of today. So yeah, I just wish it well as they're listening. Please feedback. Please just gently consider this notion that when you're interacting with others, you're in front stage performance mode, but there is a backstage performance mode. And what we're saying is you can be intentional. You are what you are when no one's looking. There are people that you can. trust and you can have meaningful dialogue about the decisions you're going to make. And that's what I would probably say at this stage, Pete, is just be mindful of that. And if we're making any sense to you, then we look forward to having you listen again. I look forward to the LinkedIn forum where people can join and add their own contributions. So yeah, I think it'd be great.

 

Pete Cohen:

It's going to be fun. It's going to be great to hear from many people because we know because of the feedback we're getting that people are very engaged with what we're saying. So it's time for you to come to the party and give us your thoughts and let us know how we can help you. So if you're not following Ray on LinkedIn, on this we'll make sure that the link to his LinkedIn and mine is there as well. So thank you so much, Ray. Have a wonderful day and we will see you. again soon.

 

Ray:

Thank you, Pete.