17 Aug, 2023

Pete Cohen:

Right, we're here, we're back. Ray, our theme of the day is the tangible and intangible. And this has really sparked my imagination in the last few weeks. It's been a real kind of a cementing, if you like, about who I am and what I'm really about. And I think this is part of the beautiful journey that you and I are on. Do you wanna just kind of... perhaps start off by explaining a little bit about why we started to talk about this and what the kind of where the conversation has evolved from around what is tangible and what is intangible.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Absolutely, and it's good morning from me, and it's good afternoon from Pete.

 

Pete Cohen:

Hehehe

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Context, we're four and a bit thousand miles away from each other. I'm in the US and Pete's in the UK. And if you're a first time listener, these podcasts are designed to have discussions around intention and

 

Pete Cohen:

Hmm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

how you wake each day, 365 days a year. And what is intention? look like and today intention can have two elements. You can have intangible intentions which is a real complex web and we can discuss that and you can have tangible intentions and I think Pete it's fair to say over the podcast we've previously done we spent some time talking about personal development which in many ways and a lot of the things you will see out there at the moment are about tangible markers. and I've got

 

Pete Cohen:

Hmm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

to be careful that I don't say anything to make an observation of anyone else's, but people have words and many of them are based upon tangible. What is real in front of us? And I just want to give context to that and then hand back to you. But tangible is something that we have all been taught before we were formally taught from an infant. There are five senses and the three main senses. taste, touch and smell are what babies, infants are told. If a mother gives birth, there's normally an encouragement for flesh to flesh contact, and then latching on, and that baby then knows who their mother is. That's one of the key aspects. As we get older, the last two, which are interesting, become the dominant ones for many people, and then what we see and what we hear. and they prompt us into action. So those five senses are what we use to make sense of this world around us. However, there is an intangible self, and many people will talk about meditation, prayer, introspection, observation, listening more, being silent more. If you look at monks and people that go away and retreat. they are going to a world without. If you look at Stoicism, and we had a brief conversation about that. So there are two worlds, but in a modern, Westernized society, there is a, in my opinion, a strong focus, P, on the tangible. Back to you.

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah, and I think with these conversations, we dive deep and this is a theme. And I suppose the idea of these conversations is to spark something in our listeners, to start looking at things differently and be curious and asking questions, I think is an inevitable, not inevitable. I think it's something we all do. It's just maybe the quality of questions that we ask ourselves. And I encourage everyone to think about, you know, what is happiness? What is fulfillment? What is it that we're all looking for? And I think that we've been brought up in a world that it's pretty clear, or there's many messaging that we need something outside of ourselves to make us happy. Like even the American dream, which was the American dream was really Europeans, the opportunity for them to not pay taxes and go to America to find gold and have what they didn't have. And I have observed so many people through my own curiosity and my own existence to think that I need this to make me happy, something outside of myself, something I must have. And I think that's a root of a lot of unhappiness. And when we talk about getting to know yourself and getting to think about what real happiness might be. it might be that it is a real internal feeling of joy, contentment, love, something you don't have to get that's outside of you. And I think that I'd love to just dive into this because I think... When we look at what we're chasing, maybe realizing, I'm, let me just land on this. I remember actually being in New Jersey and getting a taxi. I actually got a taxi from New York to New Jersey. And I was asking the taxi driver about the American dream. And he said, the American dream is a nightmare because you've got all of these people chasing things that they're probably never gonna get. and then you've got other people that are chasing things and they get them and there seems to be so unhappiness, so much unhappiness. And I'm curious, Ray, of what is it that everyone is pursuing and is that ultimately gonna give them happiness?

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

It's a really interesting perspective and as we've done so before, Pete, if you don't mind and I'll walk on thin ice when I say this, but just to remind the listeners that you are still in the very, very early stages of loss, grief. And one of the things I'm pretty sure you would recognise, and any listener may relate to this. Those five senses I've talked about, the tangible, doesn't exist for you in the loss of Hannah now. So the intangible, and it's easy for this crazy guy from England to be talking about this to you in America, from America, and I don't want to minimize this, but the reality that you face is that when it comes to Hannah, Yes, you can look at pictures, audio visual aspects, and they will trigger memories of a tangible past. But your reality today, Pete, is that you are now developing strategies of intention connected to Hannah's legacy, but they are intangible. And for many people, witnessing

 

Pete Cohen:

Hmm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

your journey, people close to you, people afar, people listening to this. they will say that is Mission Impossible. And that's not a promotion for the new film, by the way, but it is Mission

 

Pete Cohen:

which

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Impossible.

 

Pete Cohen:

you have seen.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

I haven't yet actually, I watched one before.

 

Pete Cohen:

When you fell asleep.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

But yeah, is it Mission Impossible, Pete? Do you believe that? Or do you think it is possible, but it is real hard work?

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah, before we came on, I was just telling you that the last few days have been extremely challenging. And I come from the place of when I'm coaching people, I want them to have that sense of they know who they are. They appreciate who they are. And they know their value, which is again, where our worlds massively come together. And they know that they have something to offer the world. They have this onliness, something that only they can do. And that's an internal thing. And you see it when you when you're around people like that, you see it, you feel it when you're around people of faith. They believe in something they believe in themselves, whatever that is, whether it's God, whether it's a heart, whatever it is, whatever you want to call it. When you see someone who's truly gives love, there's something so tangible about it, even though you think, well, I can't actually see that like I can see your hand. That's what I'm all about. However, what I've realized with the passing of my wife the last few days is that I miss some of those tangible things like touch. I miss the touch, I miss the hug, I miss the kiss, I miss the just the that intimacy um and that was extremely tangible even though I don't have to um you know I think of her when she was alive and when she's passed and I can still feel the love that we have. But it's a very difficult thing to navigate. And I'm a novice at this, even though I've lost people. In fact, this morning, Ray, I spoke to a friend of mine, Joe Lau. who, when I was 18, one of my friends who was at Oxford University took his life. And that was the first time in my life that someone close to me had really passed away. And I was talking to her this morning and I could feel his presence. I remember him like it was yesterday, this young, attractive, beautiful, kind human being. And I'm kind of... going all over the place a little bit here, but I suppose the point I'm trying to make is it's difficult to really move through things that are challenging, but I am determined to do it because I want to help more people find out who they are and to feel that this is where it gets a bit confusing because I think that these intangible things. are extremely tangible. Like when you see someone with faith and love, you say, you can't see it, but it's real. I don't know, what's your thought on that? Try and make sense of what I've just said.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Well, firstly, thank you for being so real and honest. And I know that when we agreed to come together in these podcasts, we knew that if there was just one person out there listening, who is going through a similar journey or can relate to any perspective we're talking about, then we are on mission. And for you to share that you miss a hug, that interaction, that touch, is incredibly... important for you to share, because we're not minimizing tangibility, we're not minimizing loss, but what we are saying is, what does Pete or anyone going through change or loss do when the tangible markers are taken away? And I'd like to introduce a word here Pete, because you've said it a couple of times in some of the podcasts, and it's a word that can trigger people, but... I know I'm guilty of this comfort zones. Would you say that tangible markers give us comfort? So if someone's losing weight, they jump on the scales. If those numbers look good, they feel good. However, some people say don't jump on scales.

 

Pete Cohen:

Mm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Just go through the seasons of persistence with a routine and you'll see the rewards, perhaps not in the short and medium term, but there is a lifestyle change. Can you speak to your

 

Pete Cohen:

Oh,

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

expertise?

 

Pete Cohen:

yeah.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

What have you discovered about comfort zones?

 

Pete Cohen:

It's fascinating because when you would, when you started speaking then the first thing that came to mind was the hedonic adaptation that is referred to with people that, you know, you get something and you might feel good because you got it, the new car, whatever it is, the new iPhone, you feel good for a bit, but it doesn't last. And you then end up looking for something else. So you spend your life living in lack that there's something that you need that you don't have. And that was the first thing that came to mind, but then you just said that, which was kind of. kind of threw me to another world that was very familiar to me because I became extremely well known for that world of weight loss. You know, my first book was called, Slimming with Pete. Some people thought it was called Swimming with Pete, and it was about people I had worked with who I'd helped them navigate through that journey. And I remember in the book, because it was a real, it was based on real people. that so many of the people I've worked with would be looking for that marker on the scales. Oh, I've lost X amount of weight. So there's cause to celebrate, you know, and often the celebration would often be to go and reward yourself with food because it was this ridiculous cycle that many of us go on because it's something that is familiar to us. But I was always about look, if you're going to weigh yourself, maybe weigh yourself once a month, don't rely on the scales. Let's rely on um, how you're feeling by, by a direct result of what you're doing. But I understood that was an approach that not everyone wanted to take. And this is where, again, this is such a big subject. We're opening up loads of doors, but measurements, you know, like I'm into measurements, but measurements aren't the be all and end all. Like for example, I wear this ring, the aura ring, and I measure my sleep. I measure my steps and I know I actually do more steps and I know my sleep is better because I'm looking at it. What's your take on that?

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Yeah, you reminded me of many a marketing class I've taken where I talk to people about needs, and one of them is hedonic needs. And hedonic is a sensory. So I've talked about the five senses earlier and hedonism is a term, but it is about the body, the sensations, and it's closely related to capturing. consumers, and I use that term deliberate capturing, because it is almost like a battle going on there between the

 

Pete Cohen:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

producers and the consumers. And in the 50s, when the teenager was discovered, I say that tongue in cheek, there was this whole new consumption group, and hedonism through music, its suggestive content, clothing, fashion, they're all things to make us feel good about ourselves. But there are some others. So intangible, one of the needs we have is the mind need. And actually, surprisingly, so few people have this one. You can call it cognitive need, mind need, but it's deliberately looking for information and swimming in that pool of information. And Pete, you and I remember 12-inch vinyl that would play for 15 minutes. If I was to turn around to my kids and say, listen to this for 15 minutes, they would literally be bored after 15 seconds because TikTok is completely the other way. And I listened to a track the other day, I won't mention the track actually, but the kids were playing it. And it sounded like a track I was very familiar with, but it was like being played four times a speed. And they said, that's what you do now. We take tracks from the past and we speed them up four times. And I smiled, but I felt incredibly sad at the same time that the only way people can consume things literally is these short spans of attention. And literally, if there's a song from the past, you just press fast forward. So everything sounds like someone's a chipmunk or a smurf. But people are consuming that because they have a different journey from me. So the head, the other one is experiential needs. We all have experiential needs. These can be tangible and intangible. Going to any event, and some people go to rock concerts or sporting events, Wimbledon wasn't too far away, and getting a ticket for the final, the men's or the women's would have been a pretty special event. But the interesting thing about experience is it has something connected to it, which is social and shared experience. What you're talking about in your loss, you've lost the shared experience with Hannah explicitly now. So social is very much connected with our connections with other social media speaks to that. I would also say that, and you've shown the aura ring, wedding rings, aura rings, jewelry, clothing have a strong symbolic element. So I don't have a tattoo, but I've got many friends with tattoos, and lots of them have tattoos for a symbolic reason. It may be a child or a girlfriend,

 

Pete Cohen:

passing

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

a wife.

 

Pete Cohen:

away of someone.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Someone has passed away yet. So what I would say is yes, I agree with hedonic, but there's also the cognitive needs, the need to know, there's the experiential needs and people looking for new experiences. And when you're young, you look for, you know, white knuckle experiences sometimes. Like if I go to a amusement park, I'm super lightweight. You will not see me on a roller coaster. I've

 

Pete Cohen:

Me

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

got

 

Pete Cohen:

neither.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

a feeling, you'll be. someone at my experiment, no,

 

Pete Cohen:

No,

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

I can't do

 

Pete Cohen:

absolutely

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

that. It's not coming.

 

Pete Cohen:

no way.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

But some people want that, they want to tangibly get in there and they want to experience. And funny enough, when you want to experience those emotional sensations of fear and euphoria and all the things going on, isn't that them wanting to tap into their intangibles? How do I awaken these intangibles?

 

Pete Cohen:

Mmm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

So one of the interesting things we could be talking about here is the best way, the journey inward I've put down here, the journey within is the longest and hardest journey for all of us. But

 

Pete Cohen:

But

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

the

 

Pete Cohen:

why?

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

journey

 

Pete Cohen:

But

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

outward,

 

Pete Cohen:

why? But why?

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

because it

 

Pete Cohen:

I'm

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

takes

 

Pete Cohen:

sorry to

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

time,

 

Pete Cohen:

interrupt

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

because

 

Pete Cohen:

you.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

it takes time and patience. So you can short circuit the circuit, you can short circuit it by having these intense emotions, but if you look at them, the ones of surprise, shock, fear. you can get, let's say, on a ride, there can be calm and peace after you've done the ride and a sense of accomplishment. But when we talk about some of the words that you talked about earlier, fulfillment, purpose, a raison d'etre, a reason for being, you know, if you woke up wherever you are today, or if you haven't done this, ask someone, hey, what's your reason for being? That will be the hardest question for someone to answer. And I think in my experience, it's made easier. by intentionally wanting to connect with the intangible of who you are. Now you said why, I believe, and remember, I always have to caveat, I believe, we are spiritual beings in a tangible body and therefore our truest nature is intangible and our bodies will get older. I used to have an Afro, I'm sure you had hair P. You know, farther time changes the way we see ourselves. And if you haven't seen someone for a long time, then you can see the change that happens in them. Sometimes it's a good change, sometimes indifferent, or there's a dramatic change. So I would say that the intangible intentions require a real range of preparation and planning. You can't just wake up of a day, oh, I'm gonna have. You can't have a whimsical flirtation with intangible intentions. I think you've got to, it takes time. You've got to build a relationship up with your reason for being.

 

Pete Cohen:

Hmm. And get

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Which

 

Pete Cohen:

any

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

is

 

Pete Cohen:

kind

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

why

 

Pete Cohen:

of

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

if you ask a teacher, sorry, I'll end on this. When a teacher asks a pupil, what do you want to do when you grow up? It's one of the worst questions for a child because they're like, is that a trick question?

 

Pete Cohen:

Hahaha

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

And what they tend to do is only look at tangible. I wanna be a nurse or a fireman or a professional football player or soccer player, whatever it might be, because what you're doing is restricting them to tangible choices, a career. But with a pandemic and people work from home, people are now going, oh, okay. So tangibly, I need to produce for a job and based on that production, I get paid, but I've also got this other time to sit. and take my dog for a walk, do some yoga, whatever it might be. You know, when we watch a movie, why are we watching a movie? Yes, there are tangible frames of a film, but normally we're looking to have some type of intangible emotion, and if we share those emotions with others, it goes back to one of the needs I talked about, there's a social need being satisfied. So today's discussion is really important that we don't restrict. our intention just to tangibles.

 

Pete Cohen:

Once again, there's a lot there. And what comes to mind for me is the power of stopping. Once again, when we stop, we can consider and we can ponder and decipher a lot of what we're talking about. Like I'm stopping and through what I've been through recently as challenging as it's been, there's been a real appreciation of what I actually have. The relationships I have with people, the love I have for... many things, love for music, which I've rediscovered again recently, and the love of just my close family. But you know, you said something really interesting before about captive, that we live in a world where lots of people are trying to grab our attention, to take us away from where we are, to go down a road, to consume, to buy, to whatever, to take us away from self, to be with ourself. And I know that... Socrates said something on the line of to know thyself. And as you said, that's the journey within. And we almost live in a world that says, no, you don't wanna do that. There's no point in doing that. That's not where happiness is. That's not where joy is. That's not where fulfillment is. That's something outside of yourself. And I do love what you said there about your belief. And my belief is the same, but we... we're spiritual beings living in this physical form. And a lot of people might not believe that, but ultimately it's up to you. And I would encourage everyone to think about what gives you the greatest fulfillment? And what is it that you're actually really looking for? I'm gonna ask you a question here, Ray, in terms of, I was gonna ask you what do you think everyone's looking for? But what are you looking for? Or are you not looking for it because you've already got it?

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

That's a great question and I think one thing, thinking about everyone here is it is fluid, it can change and remember tangible we like fixed points so we know where we are but the intangible can meander and change but mine personally for many years has been involved in teaching and I've taught for... many years. I think I've taught or been working with people in an educational framework for 30 years. That's a lot of time and I've made some great connections. Some of those students, if you go back those years, I would have been in my early 20s and I got a job teaching and didn't know what I was doing, full of fear and trepidation. I thought, how can I teach people that are only four years younger than myself? I remember my girlfriend, my wife now, we had a weekend to Bournemouth before I started teaching because I just needed to take some time out. And I found a book in a bookstore and that book became really important with some of the teaching I was doing and has gone on to be generally recognised as an important aspect. I didn't believe we were gonna go down this path, but I'm just gonna share this. The book was on services and service marketing, and the book was saying, well, what's the difference between a product and a service? And you go back to that kind of mid-90s period, services were really grabbing hold of things, and you and I were both in that space. You saw the boom in... what they were called health and fitness clubs at the time, I suppose, and personal training. And service provision would be someone teaching a class or a personal trainer, that's a service. What's the product? Well, the product would be the evidence of the client they're working with. And I remember, and I don't know if you remember this, if you were working with someone, or someone said, I've got a personal trainer, then people would look you up and down with an expectation you would look. like the fittest and healthiest person in the world, which does make me laugh because it goes back to the tangible, if you say, I'm working with a personal trainer. And I'll come back to my question, I haven't forgotten your question, Pete, but I do have a question kind of rebound. When you've worked with people in personal training, what was more important, the tangible outcome of them looking better or was there a prior, what was the first priority or was it getting them into the right mindset?

 

Pete Cohen:

Well, I remember, you know, looking back, I think for most people it was the idea of how one looked. You know, I want to look differently. And I think as people get older, that seems to change. It's more about, it's less about how I look, it's more about how I actually feel. Because I think when people want to look better, it's they're looking for some form of validation. from other people and that can be self validation. Looking at yourself, oh, I look good, I can fit in these jeans, but also other people saying, oh, you look good. And I'm just so curious that what we're looking for, maybe we already have exactly what we need. And is it an ability? Is it a choice to truly accept yourself? Like I've had people listen to this podcast who have come back to me and one of them sent a message to me yesterday, Ray, and said, When I listen to your podcast with Ray, I feel like you two are just really good friends and you're just talking to each other and I feel the connection between you. Now that's an intangible thing. When I spoke to a podcast which hasn't gone out yet, I told you with the gentleman I interviewed. Tom Herbert from The Long Table, where the whole concept is everyone gets fed, everyone has a place at the table. And if you can't afford, you pay what you can afford. If you can pay more. And when everyone's sitting at the table eating food, there's an intangible feeling of feeling that you're a part of something, feel connected to other people. And I know that's what makes me come alive. That's one of the things I'm missing. I miss that with my wife, but I still have that with you. I still have that with other people. And surely that's what life is, isn't it? Isn't it about the connections with people? We only are here because of our relationships with other people. But I think waking up to the fact of what is gonna give you greater joy, what is gonna give you greater satisfaction? And maybe it's allowing yourself to connect with people in a deep way. Yeah, I'm not sure that answers your question. I'm not sure that

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

No,

 

Pete Cohen:

answers your question.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

yeah, I'll go back to the one you asked. So early on I tripped up into teaching, but teaching was after I tripped up into something else. So sometimes we think our evolution into what we're gonna do with life is this massively tangible planned process. But effectively, I graduated the business degree, I happen to be good at sports, tangibly good at the sport, but intangibly. I was all over the place. My mind wasn't there, I wasn't focused, I wasn't disciplined. In that journey, I literally tripped up into anatomy and physiology course, simply because I wanted to know more about diet and nutrition and preparation. Then I ended up doing a master's degree in behavioural science. Then I evolved into teaching, and then teaching business degrees, music industry degrees. At the same time... having opportunities to work in those spaces because it's a DJ and ran events and other things. But the common ingredient early on was that I teach marketing, I'm interested in human performance, I'm interested in human mind, I'm interested in how that creates behavior patterns. And there was this evolution into a space. And then in the late 90s, 1997 actually, scary 26 years ago now, someone called Tom Peters came up with a term called personal branding and when I saw the term and read the article, I knew there was something about this and at the time everyone said it was self-promotion, it's just gratuitous, no, no and I've been working in that space, loosely in that space and I see my teaching with students, I see my consulting and coaching. with clients exactly the same thing. It's helping people to be the best version of themselves. And I have recognized that involves both tangible intention as well as intangible intention.

 

Pete Cohen:

Well, it's interesting because I'm thank you for sharing a little bit more about, you know, who you are and your evolution, because we want people to come on this journey of exploration with us. And I know this is a, this is a new week for you and it's the start of a new season, uh, moving into a new position where you're going to be really teaching people about personal branding. And, you know, as we got to know each other over the last few years, and you were saying about the importance of getting to know who you are, I feel that through the journey that we've been on, and it's interesting looking at the logo, the saying that's behind you, feel free to tell us what that is about. You know, if life doesn't challenge you, then, you know, that, that wonderful feeling of meeting something difficult, doing something challenging and that wonderful feeling you get for having done something that was difficult, you know, the price that we often have to pay to. to build, to grow, to evolve. But when I look at my content that I'm producing now, using Instagram, for example, I can look back and I was looking, I wanted to be heard, I've got something to say, so listen to me. And through going through this journey that I've been on the last, I don't know, six, eight weeks or so, if you look at my content and if you kind of know me, you'll probably think, well, something's changed. I don't know exactly what it is, but I engage more with you because I feel I'm a bit softer, I'm a bit more loving, I'm a bit more, I'm just different. And I'm curious, you've got to know me a little bit. What do you see in me now that is different? Because, and what you see, is that intangible?

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

That's a really good question. I would say, and when you did your classic Radio One voice there, that is appended to tangible performance. And I think one of the things I need to recognize, there are many people that will be listening to this podcast that got to know and love you that way. And it's a bit like when you teach aerobic classes, exercise the music, they said, look, Every movement you make, it's gotta be super exaggerated because someone in the class at the back, if you make it small move, their move would be hardly anything. So you learn that there, then you were on TV, and I'm guessing the directors wanted you to be really animated and all this energy so it translates on TV. But I believe that you found a rhythm now that doesn't absolutely need. everything to append it to your physical movement and voice projection. And I think you found a mode. We can have a conversation, for example, and we do this frequently, and then you go, oh, I've got an idea from that. And then literally hours later, I can see an Instagram post or something that's based upon the thing. So you won't...

 

Pete Cohen:

I did that yesterday. I did that yesterday with the one about being in a band, which is one of the

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Absolutely,

 

Pete Cohen:

greatest things

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

well

 

Pete Cohen:

you've said.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

I sat smiling and I said, wow, we had a conversation with that. And we've had this conversation that I said, life is like an instrument. I think you could really turn this into an interesting narrative for Instagram. So I sat traveling back home yesterday because I'd visited a great lake, Lake Michigan, for those of you that really want to know. And driving back, I saw the Instagram post and I smiled because I said, he's found a bandstand and you know, whose song are you singing? And I smiled because that to me is the foundation of our relationship that if I ever thought or I'm sharing stuff, I share it with you and we discussed this and going back to my first weekend before I started teaching, back when I was early. To mid-20s period, the service book said, what's the difference between a product and a service? Which really today is what's the difference between tangible intention and intangible intention? And services have some characteristics. So I'm just gonna share them, and this is totally spontaneous, so I hope it works out and it fits in nicely. But services, or I'm gonna say, I'm gonna swap services now for intangible. Intangible intentions are... you can't own them. There's not any evidence of ownership because they're inside. So when someone said, I'm confident, no one else can see it. So you can't say to someone, I'm holding on to something. You can't own it. It is also perishable, which is why people will say the journey inward is long, but people that find the beauty of meditation will do it daily, sometimes multiple days, because you can't own it. It's perishable, it's time specific. And you can't separate production from consumption. What does that mean? So let's just imagine, I've done this in classes, gonna smile if anyone's listened to this from the past. Imagine someone called Cyril, great classic English name. And Cyril makes guitars Pete, as you were talking about the bandstand. But he has halitosis and he has a little bit of body odour and dandruff. Well... Once that guitar's been finished in its manufacturing production, it's put in a box, it's wiped down, and little Jimmy or Katie has no idea who Cyril is. However, if Cyril is serving up burgers at a music festival, and the Dan drop is dropping around and he's flipping burgers, then I'm pretty sure that Billy or Katie or their parents are gonna notice. or their friends that he may not be the ideal person to provide that service. So as I think on my feet when I work that through, what does that mean to be intangible? Is that when you show up tangibly in the world, there is a hidden production to what other people consume of you. So I spoke to you about what contributions we make in the world, but before we can make a contribution to another, we must know who we are. how we've been put together. So it means when we are out there, as I'm speaking to you now, as you're speaking to me, our production, the things, the content, what we're thinking about, and the consumption between ourselves and those listening is happening simultaneously. That means there needs to be some work done beforehand. Otherwise, it doesn't work. And I can think of how many disastrous times when I have not spent enough time preparing. who I am and then interacting with someone and it's not gone well because I've ended up reacting because they may have triggered an insecurity in myself. And we see a lot of that at the moment. So we live in a world now where you cannot offend someone yet everyone's offended at the same time. I say that again, we live in a world that has a rule of don't offend anyone, but everyone's being offended all the time, which is this crazy paradox. I don't know if that makes sense.

 

Pete Cohen:

It makes, listen, it makes sense to me and it'd be fascinating to hear from people what they take away from that. And please feel free to continue to pass on your takeaways from what we're talking about, because these are just conversations that Ray and I are having. And we're talking about the theme, a theme of what is tangible, what is intangible for you to maybe take a moment and think about it and maybe take a different stand or different stance in life. Because ultimately, what we're interested in is helping you realise. just how awesome you actually are. And the fact that you do make a difference and you can make more of a difference and perhaps you're looking in the wrong place or perhaps where you're looking and what you're doing isn't giving you the greatest fulfillment or the greater fulfillment that is available to you to love and accept yourself. It seems to me that it's just so easy to fall into the trap of thinking I am not. enough, I am not good enough, there's something wrong with me. And I never forget my coach saying this to me that it's not, it's not there's nothing wrong with you. There's just something wrong with the world that you're trying to fit into. And if you're trying to fit into that world, that's saying this is what you need to be, and you can never actually be that person, and if you are, you just be for a bit. You're always coming from a place of lack, coming from a place of fear, as a place to coming from love. And I just wanna go back to the analogy that you said about the band, because I love that. I love that analogy around, look, chances are in your life, There's something you do when you do it, you're the front person, right? You're on the singing, you're the lead guitar, you are up there and everyone is looking at you, but you're probably not playing on your own. You've probably got someone on drums, you've probably got someone on the bass, backing vocals. This was your analogy, someone who is supporting you in playing what you're playing. And sometimes maybe you gotta be playing the drums. So like in what you're doing, Ray. I know you think of me as someone I'm in your band and maybe people know that maybe people don't know that it doesn't matter. I just want you to get up every day and just know that if you ever need anything, I am there for you because you're playing a big game and I want to support you. And in what I do, which is serving the servers, I want to serve the people who are serving others as best as I can. So I'm actually in a lot of groups. But for years, Ray, I was trying to play just all on my own. I wasn't allowing myself to be helped and supported. And I think. We had a conversation before we went live about intangible and tangible. I think the most tangible thing is the connections I have with people. You know, it is so real to me. Yet, how could I show you that? How could I demonstrate that to you? The love I have for you, the connection I have with you? Maybe people could feel that, but it's that to me is what really matters. It's the connections I have with other people. What's your take on that?

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

No, I agree. And if we take it back to this process of serving each other, when we first met, I asked you the four questions I ask clients. And the first one is, who are you? And for many people, if that is a strange question to ask, then it means there's some room for improvement. Because I think we should have a clear idea about our raison d'etre, our reason for being. Businesses should have that. People should have that. you know, you see some of the goats in sport have that with their coaches. They tell them who they are. I'm a world champion before they're a world champion. You've had the privilege of working with world champions. So who are you? And then the most important thing from that is what is your value? So there is contribution. You can make to self and others. And remember, it's two tiered. You always have to give contribution back to self. If you only serve others, you fall into the trap of people pleasing. and there's a deficit, there's a gap, there's a chasm that you create between your true north and the servicing of other people's true north. So you have to find a rhythm where people know your heart, they know who you are, but they also know that you are there to contribute. But both of those things, who are you and what your value, are intangible. Let me make that really clear, they're intangible. Then the next two are external from you, and they are who are you going to serve? because we can't serve everyone. So if someone has an aversion to faith, for example, or religion of any kind, they may not agree with some or any of the things I say, and I have to trust that in that journey, they might get some seeds that go, oh, I'm just gonna hang in here a little bit more. And I listened to a very popular podcast yesterday where the host said that they do not believe in anything they cannot see. They only believe in measurable things. And I found that fascinating because they've got a great following. And I think, wow, so they only believe in tangible. And I found it fascinating because I'm anchored somewhere else. So who am I serving? Are people who want to listen, whether they agree with me or disagree with me. But then the next thing is how do I serve? So when I met you, Pete, you said to me, why are you not doing a podcast? Why haven't you got a book out? Why are you not doing this? And... I shared with you the priorities of my journey and

 

Pete Cohen:

Hmm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

how blessed I felt I was. But you've also then seen that journey evolve and change and you're right, I start a new position today. So there's a transition into a new world and that will have its own challenges but also its own high points. But I will be teaching personal brand management, leadership. and joining a business school that has a really good, strong global reputation in business. So I feel really privileged to be part of that. But at the same time, I've got to be very mindful that I'm bringing my experience, so-called expertise in an area, and then I've got to connect that with other people that are doing a great job where they are. So I have to be mindful of that. I allow my playing on this in terms of, and you triggered me into this, so you're gonna get me thinking now, because this was not planned. And we

 

Pete Cohen:

Hahaha.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

talked about it before. But going back to those five essential elements of services in business, I'm gonna play around with that, and I think it's worthy of us having a discussion again, but I have said, intangible does mean perishable. It's time specific. So you cannot switch your mind and say, I'm a confident, happy person, stop. You have to make an investment in yourself inwardly. When you show up in the world, your intangible and tangible nature are inseparable, as I said, the production

 

Pete Cohen:

Hmm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

of who you are and the consumption by others happens simultaneously. You can't own your intangibles, but you can build them up to be the biggest thing in your life. Now, doesn't that sound like a paradox? You know, you can't own them, but they are in you and you have to daily work on them. And I think it's a wonderful thing that you've just helped me think about.

 

Pete Cohen:

Mm.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Because some people say, well, of course I own my thoughts. Well, that's the interesting thing. Intention is the movement towards ownership and accountability of your thinking, your intentions that are intangible. But actually, you can't own them because they can change if you leave them. which is why Pete, going through the loss of Hannah, you have to now work heavily on your intangible for the benefit of her legacy, but her truth running through you. And when you felt really on point, and I remember as I'm looking outside my window here, when we walked around my neighborhood, you said that Hannah lives in me. And to me, that is a kind of metaphor for saying that... your intangible nature has an inextricable link to Hannah's memory. So everything you think about and everything you gesture, it's built in there. You're not gonna let go of that. It's hardwired. And that's wonderful. And the last thing I wanted to land on playing on, the thing I really wanted to add is intention. And being intentional 365 days reduces. variability because we are all variable and what that means is people call us contradictions and we are all massive contradictions but when you take an investment in both your tangible and intangible and I would argue that your intangible is often the fact well is the foundation of the tangible markers then and you constantly work for that it works um and we had a conversation recently about Uhhhhhh... The Hearns, Barry Hearn and his son. And his son

 

Pete Cohen:

Eddie.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

was asked the question, how much is he worth? I think it was Piers Morgan, I saw it recently. And he smiled and they were going backwards and forwards. But he said something that was really powerful for me. He said, I wake every day and I have a mindset that keeps me in the striving mode, that I've gotta keep going. So I don't live in a mode where I've made it, I've done it. He goes, I wake up, and I'm not gonna use the explicit terminology he did, but I would just say that he said he woke up with a striving mentality. Now that's interesting, P, and I'd love your take on it. When people are successful, they're adorned with financial success and all the accoutrements of success, the home, the car, the clothes, you know. In your experience, do they reach the top of the mountain?

 

Pete Cohen:

Absolutely not. From my own personal experience and from the experience of being one of the most curious people on the planet and talking to people. First thing, I just want to thank you for being with us today, because today is a big day in, in the story of your life and starting a new position. When this goes out, you already would have been a couple of weeks into it. And I wish you great success. And I'm really looking forward to being on that journey with you and all of our listeners that you have this opportunity as we continue to, to put podcasts out to see how this goes, because Ray is someone he does know who he is and he knows what he's here to do, he knows his value. to seeing that unfold. And that's an intangible, no, it's a tangible and intangible thing. Or there's both of those elements. Like you say, they coexist. And I think that's one of the biggest takeaways from this. So I thank you for that because I just love having these conversations because I want to understand more. I wanna know more. And I'm sure I'm not the only person. And I just, without, you know, getting, breaking down too much that... I think there'll come a time in most of our lives where we'll think, what was I doing? You know, what was I chasing? I'm not the only one, I've been striving all my life. And I like to strive because I like to achieve, but I was striving, I think maybe too much. I was looking for something that I didn't have to look for because it was already there. It was just accepting myself. And when I... If you've ever lost anyone or you've come to a situation when you realise none of this is really important, when you think the things that you're important, you realise they're not, which is maybe, I don't know, the car, the money in the bank. And then you realise, hang on a second, what's really important? And I think it's the connections that we have with others, and the impact that we can have on others by being present, by listening, by being kind. by being loving and we seem to be living in a world that's moving in a bit of opposition or massive opposition to that. And I know this is a subject we will return to and I'm looking forward to continuing these conversations. But. Please understand, we're doing this because we're explorers ourselves. We're inviting you to come on this journey of living intentionally, daily living intentionally, leaning into things. Can you tell us what that thing, the quote says behind you and what that means? And I think we should bring this to a close, but please reach out to us. Reach out to Dr. Ray on LinkedIn or reach out to me on Instagram, however you wanna reach out. Tell us, what are you taking away? What would you like us to discuss? How can we help and how can we serve you? Hope back to you, Ray.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Okay, so I've got a mural on the wall and it says, if it doesn't challenge you, it doesn't change you. Another way of saying that, and someone's going to go off and check this now, you literally cannot spell challenge without change. So embedded in challenge is change. And what that says to me is that anything that needs to grow gets challenged. So if you look at a seed that goes into a ground, it goes into a dark space and it's watered and it starts to go through this change. We've discussed one, you know, the famous, you know, butterfly story has been heard by loads of people. And if you're not sure, go and look at the evolution. I'm not gonna, no spoiler alert today. You can look at that evolution. But here's the interesting thing. I think we all do that. And... I wanted to say this Pete, if people are confused whether Intangible is real, there is a company out there and we're not sponsored by them. So I can say that there's a company and their name rhymes with room. I'll let Pete share if he wants to, but they are based on the psychological factors that determine our habits and our relationship with food. And they have been, they have proven to be highly successful in providing an app for people where it isn't about calorie counting, isn't about this, it's about getting people into a healthy relationship with food. But healthy relationship means intangible thing. What does food mean to me? When do I use food? I grew up in an environment and a culture where food is used to celebrate everything. So food is... a celebratory aspect and it means if you feel down, you can find yourself thinking about food. So I just wanted to end on that, that there's a very successful company out there that is on this foundation. And I think if you do get the head right, as I've talked about, your hearts will be full with reasons for being, and then your habits will follow. Thank you, Pete.

 

Pete Cohen:

Thank you so much, which was the last podcast. So please feel free to reach out to us. We, we're, we're looking forward to continuing this journey. I wish you great success this week, Ray, and thank you for your time. Uh, once again, this has been really enjoyable, really thought provoking, just what I needed, uh, right now at this moment in time, so I really appreciate you.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

Thank you, always a pleasure.

 

Pete Cohen:

And it's a good night from me.

 

Dr. Ray Sylvester:

and it's a good night from him.

 

Pete Cohen:

Good night.